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How much do you think you would have had to pay for an iPhone 200 years ago? Are you sure society hasn't benefitted from productivity increases?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
chii 3y ago
People who claim that modern industrial tech and advancements have not benefited society is arguing that they are not being disproportionately benefited. Industrial automation did create the 2hr weeks - only that it's the people who paid capital and and invested in their creation that got those 2hr weeks. But everybody else got the benefit as the general access and availability of many more goods and services than otherwise would've been possible.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  >many more goods and services than otherwise would've been possible Why is More stuff =/= a better life not blatantly obvious at this point Having an iPhone doesn't make your life better
  - throwaway173738 3y ago
    Yeah it’s like saying that if only we all had 800 hammers we’d all live like kings. Technology does not automatically make life better, only different. Better is a value judgement.
    - transcoderx 3y ago
      If you have cancer and a doctor can cure it, it is not just a value judgement.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Here are some of the ways in which a smartphone + mobile broadband has made my life better: Having a communications device that lets me contact whoever I want, whenever I want, and share media immediately. A mapping solution to ensure I am never lost. Access to the world’s largest repository of information so I can look up information or how to do something at a moment’s notice. Reminder system to help me keep track of tasks. Access to whichever books/music/videos/games I want at anytime in any place. Ability to manage money and pay (An additional way at least, without the need to carry cards). Health tracking and alert benefits of a watch paired with a phone. Ability to take high quality photos and videos at anytime.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      I'm not denying any of these improvements but there is also evidence that walking with this constant distraction and being bombarded by social media / news is bad for mental health and our ability to focus.
  - chii 3y ago
    > Having an iPhone doesn't make your life better But having a lot of easy to access food certainly does. Or what about clean water, or electricity? Or cheap transport? When has there been in the past, before the advent of industrial automation and technology, that people could just travel on a whim somewhere more than a day's walk away? Just because some symbol of luxury like the iphone is what you think of as "more stuff", doesn't mean it is. "more stuff" is _everything_, and while it does include the iphone, it also includes the cheap phone that makes it possible to communicate almost for free with almost anyone close or far. The tickle down has been happening for the past 70 years, and the regular people have been benefiting so much that it looks normal now. I would use the analogy of boiling a frog, but somehow this doesn't quite suit.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      > Or what about clean water, or electricity Is access to clean water or electricity improving / getting cheaper? How about clean air and stable climate?
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      >The tickle down has been happening for the past 70 years, and the regular people have been benefiting so much that it looks normal now. This is just not true based on the data. The rich eat well - but food insecurity is still RAMPANT because of greed. Food is less healthy now than ever and the majority of the population is malnourished - that is to say eating the wrong thing - despite us having enough capacity to produce quality food for everyone. Food deserts ensure that the poorest people get the worst food.
      - transcoderx 3y ago
        Isn't junk food generally more expensive than vegetables?
        AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        Not really - the McDonalds dollar menu is what a lot of poor people live on because they have no time or energy to shop and cook. Again a big piece of this is because food deserts don't have fresh food, so you have to commute to shop often.
  - CrazyStat 3y ago
    If having an iPhone doesn't make your life better, why do you spend $1000 on one? (You being a generic you in both cases)
    - dystopianthrow 3y ago
      Because what would've been my self-sufficient tribe that needed nothing more than food, socialization, and shelter has been obliterated by various, human-made forces, and I now have to try and fill in the void by spending money. Partly the social void via digital communication, and partly ancillary emotions generated by having something nice that makes my sisyphean pursuit just a little bit easier. If I was able to live a life where I could see my friends and family, and be a part of a community, without any threat of that way of life being destroyed, I would not be working a job in a first world country. Nor would I be stuffing my metaphorical and physical face with: entertainment, food, various media like video games, etc. Good company is enough to stay entertained for hours -- and it's free; but past a certain age becomes annoyingly more difficult to find as people get loaded on responsibilities, and time-commitments, and other things they believe are prudent for their "success." I'm an extreme extrovert. My biggest gripe with capitalism is that it's alienated and killed the souls of all the people around me -- and now I have to spend copious amounts of money just to try and fill that void.
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        I couldn’t have said it better myself! That’s a well said narrative
      - vc8f6vVV 3y ago
        How about moving to Amish county? You always have a choice. Just don't expect to find there a social utopia where "everybody is free and everybody has at least 6 slaves", people are the same everywhere, with iPhones or not.
        dystopianthrow 3y ago
        It's crossed my mind, but I'm already too "English" to fit in. I might end up somewhere quiet in LatAm -- maybe Colombia, where they have a cultural notion of "enough."
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  Why is the premise that a "better life" is one where we work fewer hours per week? Surely there are other dimensions on which to measure quality of life. Or maybe you'd prefer to live in Medeival Times? After all, you'd work fewer hours per week! Sure you might die at the age of 35, have your leg gruesomely amputated due to sepsis, or be burned at the stake for suggesting the earth spins around the Sun. But think of all the free time!
  - klibertp 3y ago
    Yeah, that free time that didn't exist: > Serfs in medieval Europe had very little free time. They were required to work long hours, usually from sunrise to sunset, and often had to work on Sundays and other holy days as well. Their work consisted of farming tasks such as plowing, planting, harvesting, and tending to livestock. In addition to their agricultural work, serfs were also required to perform labor for their lords, such as building and maintaining structures, repairing roads, and providing military service.
    - TechBro8615 3y ago
      Counterpoint [0]: > Plowing and harvesting were backbreaking toil, but the peasant enjoyed anywhere from eight weeks to half the year off. The Church, mindful of how to keep a population from rebelling, enforced frequent mandatory holidays ... In fact, economist Juliet Shor found that during periods of particularly high wages, such as 14th-century England, peasants might put in no more than 150 days a year. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-great-debate/column-why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you-idUKBRE97S0KU20130829 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-great-debate/colum...
      - klibertp 3y ago
        Oh, interesting. Isn't it only off from farming? I thought that's where making roads and dying in wars came in. But it's also true they had to have at least some free time to mate.
        3y ago
phpisthebest 3y ago
That depends on you believe society has actually benefited (on the whole) from iPhone, internet, social media etc Which is a different question from productivity
- vc8f6vVV 3y ago
  It depends largely on your definition of "benefit".
croes 3y ago
And the cost of making China powerful, how this turns out has yet to come
ihatepython 3y ago
> How much do you think you would have had to pay for an iPhone 200 years ago? Are you sure society hasn't benefitted from productivity increases? The world would be a much better place without the iPhone[1]. [1] with the exception of all iPhones running iOS 6 or earlier
- transcoderx 3y ago
  If you don't want any of the modern amenities, you may be able to get by on a 2 hour work week.
birdyrooster 3y ago
People are ditching their phones which to me proves their value isn't universal and probably isn't that great of a benefit to anyone other than business.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

chii 3y ago

People who claim that modern industrial tech and advancements have not benefited society is arguing that they are not being disproportionately benefited. Industrial automation did create the 2hr weeks - only that it's the people who paid capital and and invested in their creation that got those 2hr weeks. But everybody else got the benefit as the general access and availability of many more goods and services than otherwise would've been possible.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
>many more goods and services than otherwise would've been possible Why is More stuff =/= a better life not blatantly obvious at this point Having an iPhone doesn't make your life better
- throwaway173738 3y ago
  Yeah it’s like saying that if only we all had 800 hammers we’d all live like kings. Technology does not automatically make life better, only different. Better is a value judgement.
  - transcoderx 3y ago
    If you have cancer and a doctor can cure it, it is not just a value judgement.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Here are some of the ways in which a smartphone + mobile broadband has made my life better: Having a communications device that lets me contact whoever I want, whenever I want, and share media immediately. A mapping solution to ensure I am never lost. Access to the world’s largest repository of information so I can look up information or how to do something at a moment’s notice. Reminder system to help me keep track of tasks. Access to whichever books/music/videos/games I want at anytime in any place. Ability to manage money and pay (An additional way at least, without the need to carry cards). Health tracking and alert benefits of a watch paired with a phone. Ability to take high quality photos and videos at anytime.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    I'm not denying any of these improvements but there is also evidence that walking with this constant distraction and being bombarded by social media / news is bad for mental health and our ability to focus.
- chii 3y ago
  > Having an iPhone doesn't make your life better But having a lot of easy to access food certainly does. Or what about clean water, or electricity? Or cheap transport? When has there been in the past, before the advent of industrial automation and technology, that people could just travel on a whim somewhere more than a day's walk away? Just because some symbol of luxury like the iphone is what you think of as "more stuff", doesn't mean it is. "more stuff" is _everything_, and while it does include the iphone, it also includes the cheap phone that makes it possible to communicate almost for free with almost anyone close or far. The tickle down has been happening for the past 70 years, and the regular people have been benefiting so much that it looks normal now. I would use the analogy of boiling a frog, but somehow this doesn't quite suit.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    > Or what about clean water, or electricity Is access to clean water or electricity improving / getting cheaper? How about clean air and stable climate?
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    >The tickle down has been happening for the past 70 years, and the regular people have been benefiting so much that it looks normal now. This is just not true based on the data. The rich eat well - but food insecurity is still RAMPANT because of greed. Food is less healthy now than ever and the majority of the population is malnourished - that is to say eating the wrong thing - despite us having enough capacity to produce quality food for everyone. Food deserts ensure that the poorest people get the worst food.
    - transcoderx 3y ago
      Isn't junk food generally more expensive than vegetables?
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        Not really - the McDonalds dollar menu is what a lot of poor people live on because they have no time or energy to shop and cook. Again a big piece of this is because food deserts don't have fresh food, so you have to commute to shop often.
- CrazyStat 3y ago
  If having an iPhone doesn't make your life better, why do you spend $1000 on one? (You being a generic you in both cases)
  - dystopianthrow 3y ago
    Because what would've been my self-sufficient tribe that needed nothing more than food, socialization, and shelter has been obliterated by various, human-made forces, and I now have to try and fill in the void by spending money. Partly the social void via digital communication, and partly ancillary emotions generated by having something nice that makes my sisyphean pursuit just a little bit easier. If I was able to live a life where I could see my friends and family, and be a part of a community, without any threat of that way of life being destroyed, I would not be working a job in a first world country. Nor would I be stuffing my metaphorical and physical face with: entertainment, food, various media like video games, etc. Good company is enough to stay entertained for hours -- and it's free; but past a certain age becomes annoyingly more difficult to find as people get loaded on responsibilities, and time-commitments, and other things they believe are prudent for their "success." I'm an extreme extrovert. My biggest gripe with capitalism is that it's alienated and killed the souls of all the people around me -- and now I have to spend copious amounts of money just to try and fill that void.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      I couldn’t have said it better myself! That’s a well said narrative
    - vc8f6vVV 3y ago
      How about moving to Amish county? You always have a choice. Just don't expect to find there a social utopia where "everybody is free and everybody has at least 6 slaves", people are the same everywhere, with iPhones or not.
      - dystopianthrow 3y ago
        It's crossed my mind, but I'm already too "English" to fit in. I might end up somewhere quiet in LatAm -- maybe Colombia, where they have a cultural notion of "enough."
TechBro8615 3y ago
Why is the premise that a "better life" is one where we work fewer hours per week? Surely there are other dimensions on which to measure quality of life. Or maybe you'd prefer to live in Medeival Times? After all, you'd work fewer hours per week! Sure you might die at the age of 35, have your leg gruesomely amputated due to sepsis, or be burned at the stake for suggesting the earth spins around the Sun. But think of all the free time!
- klibertp 3y ago
  Yeah, that free time that didn't exist: > Serfs in medieval Europe had very little free time. They were required to work long hours, usually from sunrise to sunset, and often had to work on Sundays and other holy days as well. Their work consisted of farming tasks such as plowing, planting, harvesting, and tending to livestock. In addition to their agricultural work, serfs were also required to perform labor for their lords, such as building and maintaining structures, repairing roads, and providing military service.
  - TechBro8615 3y ago
    Counterpoint [0]: > Plowing and harvesting were backbreaking toil, but the peasant enjoyed anywhere from eight weeks to half the year off. The Church, mindful of how to keep a population from rebelling, enforced frequent mandatory holidays ... In fact, economist Juliet Shor found that during periods of particularly high wages, such as 14th-century England, peasants might put in no more than 150 days a year. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-great-debate/column-why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you-idUKBRE97S0KU20130829 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-great-debate/colum...
    - klibertp 3y ago
      Oh, interesting. Isn't it only off from farming? I thought that's where making roads and dying in wars came in. But it's also true they had to have at least some free time to mate.
      - 3y ago

phpisthebest 3y ago

That depends on you believe society has actually benefited (on the whole) from iPhone, internet, social media etc Which is a different question from productivity

vc8f6vVV 3y ago
It depends largely on your definition of "benefit".

croes 3y ago

And the cost of making China powerful, how this turns out has yet to come

ihatepython 3y ago

> How much do you think you would have had to pay for an iPhone 200 years ago? Are you sure society hasn't benefitted from productivity increases? The world would be a much better place without the iPhone[1]. [1] with the exception of all iPhones running iOS 6 or earlier

transcoderx 3y ago
If you don't want any of the modern amenities, you may be able to get by on a 2 hour work week.

birdyrooster 3y ago

People are ditching their phones which to me proves their value isn't universal and probably isn't that great of a benefit to anyone other than business.