8 ms·

I don’t think legalization is better for everyone, though. I live in Oregon and I’ve been very disappointed with the impact of decriminalizing possession. Cases

I don’t think legalization is better for everyone, though. I live in Oregon and I’ve been very disappointed with the impact of decriminalizing possession. Cases are no longer clogging the courts, instead we have people using in my neighborhood park and on public transit. I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). It was, apparently, not his first time. You seem to support it, how would you address the externalities?

JKCalhoun 3y ago
I'm with you. "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. To play Devil's advocate for the opposition though, perhaps we need Fentanyl Island where we send people that want everything legal. Okay, not a serious proposal ... or maybe I'm channelling Brave New World — a book I have come to believe was in fact supposed to represent a Utopian future after all.
- jl6 3y ago
  Another haha-only-serious plan would be for the government to stop seizing drugs at busts and instead covertly intercept them, lace a certain percentage with ultra-lethal poison, and send them on their merry way. As the body count rises, it becomes way too dangerous to buy anything through illegal channels.
  - knodi123 3y ago
    Or just deputize Duterte and let him execute every addict and dealer he can get his bloody hands on. Genius idea, I wonder why no one else thought of the utterly psychopathic solution?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  > "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I dunno. We tried making alcohol illegal for a while in the US. Alcohol is pretty addictive, isn't it? And we ran into the same problems we have with other illegal drugs, for the same reason.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Alcohol is still extremely heavily regulated.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      And other drugs should be too. Legal and regulated. Just like alcohol.
- knodi123 3y ago
  > "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I don't really think that's the case. Prohibition is what enables all the evils we hate. If all of these drugs were legal, and cheap, and sold at or below cost by the government, _and all other sales were illegal_, then guess what would disappear overnight? Dealers, smugglers, junkies supporting an expensive habit by fencing stolen goods.... and most overdoses. Actual deaths. You still have your addicts, and maybe you get _some_ new ones - but they're getting safer drugs from a place where there are also resources for getting yourself clean. It really, really sounds like a win/win/win.
  - erenyeager 3y ago
    It’s not a win win because you’re spreading the drug use. And this had health consequences and social ones. I think the culture needs a shift, there are many countries with harsh punishments for drug dealing and the culture around drug usage just does not exist like it does in the US. Some places will even shun addicts and not help them with their addiction. And remarkably, these societies don’t have as many drug problems!
    - knodi123 3y ago
      > It’s not a win win because you’re spreading the drug use. Am I, though? As the fundamental claim behind your dismissal of all the other benefits, including the massive death tolls, it behooves you to back this one up. > there are many countries with harsh punishments for drug dealing and the culture around drug usage just does not exist like it does in the US Oh, they're harsh here, too. Can you show that the harshness of the penalties has led to a reduction in drug use? > Some places will even shun addicts and not help them with their addiction Cruelty and brutality can certainly influence peoples' behavior. So can compassion and understanding. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about how morally righteous it would be to just crush and brutalize anyone involved in the illegal drug trade. Whatever "illegal" is defined as, based on our government's criteria (and disregarding groups like the AMA). https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-expunge-records-people-convicted-now-legal-cannabis-charges https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-exp...
zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
Treat it the same as drinking in public. Fentanyl should be legal for anyone to buy and use, but that doesn't mean it's ok to do it in public and expose others to it.
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  Drinking in public should probably be legal though. Well, maybe not on the bus. In a lot of countries you can drink in public and it's fine.
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Wine and beer yes, but usually not spirits.
    - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
      So weed is ok but cocaine needs to be done in private?
      - morkalork 3y ago
        I think most people would agree with that.
    - TulliusCicero 3y ago
      In terms of social disruption, is this a meaningful distinction?
adwi 3y ago
There’s a value somewhere in the horrors of untreated addiction getting first-hand visibility. The true cost of policing, prosecuting, and jailing end-users must be enormous, maybe it will rally people to demand those resources get put toward direct outreach to try to address the root causes of the issue. Maybe it’s a feature, not a bug.
- ihaveajob 3y ago
  If that's a feature, it's a costly one, at the expense of ceding the public square to the substance abuse crowd. This LA Times story about the decline of the Metro system since the pandemic almost brought me to tears. I've enjoyed the lines and stations mentioned in the story, and I can see why they're deserted now. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...
JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
> I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). This is obviously proscribed under most localities' current regulations, since we mostly ban regular tobacco smoking indoors. Legalization advocates are not advocating for tolerating involuntary exposure or other externalities. Enforce the existing laws against second hand smoke, DUI, etc. > we have people using in my neighborhood park Annoying for sure. In my neighborhood, dog shit and hobo piss are omnipresent sidewalk hazards. But I don't think there's a solution to the dregs of society being a highly visible/smellable nuisance - real estate tends to be stratified by class, and I'm not financially equipped to insulate myself like the upper ones. Until we decide to actually deal with the economics that produce these frictions, it's just a fact of life.
dfxm12 3y ago
FWIW, OP said they think legalization would stop the cartel, and you're describing the local effects of decriminalization. These are different things. Personally, I don't think either makes sense without having support systems already in place, like easily available SIS, rehab, readily available naloxone and a lot of other general welfare that we're missing in the US, like support for the homeless, mental health care, etc. Just as sort of an analogy to what I'm saying, citizens of all the states had access to some gambling addiction hotline even before gambling was widely legalized.
csnover 3y ago
I don’t live in Oregon but complaints here about drug use on transit—and antisocial activity in general—have also increased sharply since the beginning of the pandemic. So, I suspect if there is actually a causal relationship between legalisation and antisocial behaviour, that it is currently heavily outweighed by other more significant changes that have occurred in the same period of time.
olyjohn 3y ago
Well it's not legal to smoke it on the bus either. Not to mention, this was going on well before decriminalization in OR, and it's happening up here in WA too.
kodah 3y ago
> Cases are no longer clogging the courts I live in Oregon and that's not true: https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-11-23/oregon-public-defender-shortage-nearly-300-cases-dismissed https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-11-23/oregon-pu... > we have people using in my neighborhood park and on public transit. I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). This happens regardless of the legality. The big question is whether they can be encouraged to take their usage to safe sites, which is why the whole encampments thing that people don't want was key to a plan involving decriminalization. That's to say, the big picture matters in harm reduction, not the individual steps. We have a large system of incentives that drives the industrial prison complex that have all been in place a long time. You won't see material improvements with one law passed. > You seem to support it, how would you address the externalities? The first step is getting our police count up; we had 300 cops for the entire city and were only answering active violent calls. They've hired 300 more. The next step is getting the people who are ready to get off the streets off by opening up the transitional sites that the city and county are fighting over. After all that, we need to invest in non-12 step recovery centers for anyone battling chemical addiction. What you're left with after that is manageable. I say all of this as someone who has lost a lot of friends to the opioid crisis and has watched Portland's meth problem first hand. I watched heavy-handed policies fail time and time again, deity-focused 12 step programs try to shame people into recovery and fail, and watched as forces of power used those failures to fuel a drug war and prison complex that rivaled no other country on Earth. This isn't just about doing things differently; it's about stopping the hard-nose crap that got us here with no end in sight and actually addressing the problem. The journey will be painful as the journey to here has been painful but it'll be worth it.
- stochastastic 3y ago
  > I live in Oregon and that's not true… Argh, that makes it even worse! > I say all of this as someone who has lost a lot of friends to the opioid crisis and has watched Portland's meth problem first hand. Sorry to hear that. I’ve been fortunate not to have friends or family caught up in it, but we lost a neighbor last year. I hope you’re right that things will get better. In the meantime, it feels disingenuous to act like the impact so far has been positive for everyone, or like legalizing and hard-nose crap are the only options. I think it undermines trust and pits different parts of Portland against each other. It’s easy to get a laugh or an eye roll from my neighbors on the north side of town when I pass along some of the ”obvious” solutions my friends and colleagues from the west side have shared with me. Please consider our perspective: even if we double the police force and start addressing crime more promptly, our neighborhood is still worse off because we have more crime. Other parts of the city don’t seem to appreciate that.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I'm with you. "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. To play Devil's advocate for the opposition though, perhaps we need Fentanyl Island where we send people that want everything legal. Okay, not a serious proposal ... or maybe I'm channelling Brave New World — a book I have come to believe was in fact supposed to represent a Utopian future after all.

jl6 3y ago
Another haha-only-serious plan would be for the government to stop seizing drugs at busts and instead covertly intercept them, lace a certain percentage with ultra-lethal poison, and send them on their merry way. As the body count rises, it becomes way too dangerous to buy anything through illegal channels.
- knodi123 3y ago
  Or just deputize Duterte and let him execute every addict and dealer he can get his bloody hands on. Genius idea, I wonder why no one else thought of the utterly psychopathic solution?
amanaplanacanal 3y ago
> "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I dunno. We tried making alcohol illegal for a while in the US. Alcohol is pretty addictive, isn't it? And we ran into the same problems we have with other illegal drugs, for the same reason.
- lazide 3y ago
  Alcohol is still extremely heavily regulated.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    And other drugs should be too. Legal and regulated. Just like alcohol.
knodi123 3y ago
> "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I don't really think that's the case. Prohibition is what enables all the evils we hate. If all of these drugs were legal, and cheap, and sold at or below cost by the government, _and all other sales were illegal_, then guess what would disappear overnight? Dealers, smugglers, junkies supporting an expensive habit by fencing stolen goods.... and most overdoses. Actual deaths. You still have your addicts, and maybe you get _some_ new ones - but they're getting safer drugs from a place where there are also resources for getting yourself clean. It really, really sounds like a win/win/win.
- erenyeager 3y ago
  It’s not a win win because you’re spreading the drug use. And this had health consequences and social ones. I think the culture needs a shift, there are many countries with harsh punishments for drug dealing and the culture around drug usage just does not exist like it does in the US. Some places will even shun addicts and not help them with their addiction. And remarkably, these societies don’t have as many drug problems!
  - knodi123 3y ago
    > It’s not a win win because you’re spreading the drug use. Am I, though? As the fundamental claim behind your dismissal of all the other benefits, including the massive death tolls, it behooves you to back this one up. > there are many countries with harsh punishments for drug dealing and the culture around drug usage just does not exist like it does in the US Oh, they're harsh here, too. Can you show that the harshness of the penalties has led to a reduction in drug use? > Some places will even shun addicts and not help them with their addiction Cruelty and brutality can certainly influence peoples' behavior. So can compassion and understanding. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about how morally righteous it would be to just crush and brutalize anyone involved in the illegal drug trade. Whatever "illegal" is defined as, based on our government's criteria (and disregarding groups like the AMA). https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-expunge-records-people-convicted-now-legal-cannabis-charges https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-exp...

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago

Treat it the same as drinking in public. Fentanyl should be legal for anyone to buy and use, but that doesn't mean it's ok to do it in public and expose others to it.

TulliusCicero 3y ago
Drinking in public should probably be legal though. Well, maybe not on the bus. In a lot of countries you can drink in public and it's fine.
- morkalork 3y ago
  Wine and beer yes, but usually not spirits.
  - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
    So weed is ok but cocaine needs to be done in private?
    - morkalork 3y ago
      I think most people would agree with that.
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    In terms of social disruption, is this a meaningful distinction?

adwi 3y ago

There’s a value somewhere in the horrors of untreated addiction getting first-hand visibility. The true cost of policing, prosecuting, and jailing end-users must be enormous, maybe it will rally people to demand those resources get put toward direct outreach to try to address the root causes of the issue. Maybe it’s a feature, not a bug.

ihaveajob 3y ago
If that's a feature, it's a costly one, at the expense of ceding the public square to the substance abuse crowd. This LA Times story about the decline of the Metro system since the pandemic almost brought me to tears. I've enjoyed the lines and stations mentioned in the story, and I can see why they're deserted now. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-the-deadly-use-of-drugs-on-metro-trains https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-03-14/horror-t...

JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago

> I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). This is obviously proscribed under most localities' current regulations, since we mostly ban regular tobacco smoking indoors. Legalization advocates are not advocating for tolerating involuntary exposure or other externalities. Enforce the existing laws against second hand smoke, DUI, etc. > we have people using in my neighborhood park Annoying for sure. In my neighborhood, dog shit and hobo piss are omnipresent sidewalk hazards. But I don't think there's a solution to the dregs of society being a highly visible/smellable nuisance - real estate tends to be stratified by class, and I'm not financially equipped to insulate myself like the upper ones. Until we decide to actually deal with the economics that produce these frictions, it's just a fact of life.

dfxm12 3y ago

FWIW, OP said they think legalization would stop the cartel, and you're describing the local effects of decriminalization. These are different things. Personally, I don't think either makes sense without having support systems already in place, like easily available SIS, rehab, readily available naloxone and a lot of other general welfare that we're missing in the US, like support for the homeless, mental health care, etc. Just as sort of an analogy to what I'm saying, citizens of all the states had access to some gambling addiction hotline even before gambling was widely legalized.

csnover 3y ago

I don’t live in Oregon but complaints here about drug use on transit—and antisocial activity in general—have also increased sharply since the beginning of the pandemic. So, I suspect if there is actually a causal relationship between legalisation and antisocial behaviour, that it is currently heavily outweighed by other more significant changes that have occurred in the same period of time.

olyjohn 3y ago

Well it's not legal to smoke it on the bus either. Not to mention, this was going on well before decriminalization in OR, and it's happening up here in WA too.

kodah 3y ago

> Cases are no longer clogging the courts I live in Oregon and that's not true: https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-11-23/oregon-public-defender-shortage-nearly-300-cases-dismissed https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-11-23/oregon-pu... > we have people using in my neighborhood park and on public transit. I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). This happens regardless of the legality. The big question is whether they can be encouraged to take their usage to safe sites, which is why the whole encampments thing that people don't want was key to a plan involving decriminalization. That's to say, the big picture matters in harm reduction, not the individual steps. We have a large system of incentives that drives the industrial prison complex that have all been in place a long time. You won't see material improvements with one law passed. > You seem to support it, how would you address the externalities? The first step is getting our police count up; we had 300 cops for the entire city and were only answering active violent calls. They've hired 300 more. The next step is getting the people who are ready to get off the streets off by opening up the transitional sites that the city and county are fighting over. After all that, we need to invest in non-12 step recovery centers for anyone battling chemical addiction. What you're left with after that is manageable. I say all of this as someone who has lost a lot of friends to the opioid crisis and has watched Portland's meth problem first hand. I watched heavy-handed policies fail time and time again, deity-focused 12 step programs try to shame people into recovery and fail, and watched as forces of power used those failures to fuel a drug war and prison complex that rivaled no other country on Earth. This isn't just about doing things differently; it's about stopping the hard-nose crap that got us here with no end in sight and actually addressing the problem. The journey will be painful as the journey to here has been painful but it'll be worth it.

stochastastic 3y ago
> I live in Oregon and that's not true… Argh, that makes it even worse! > I say all of this as someone who has lost a lot of friends to the opioid crisis and has watched Portland's meth problem first hand. Sorry to hear that. I’ve been fortunate not to have friends or family caught up in it, but we lost a neighbor last year. I hope you’re right that things will get better. In the meantime, it feels disingenuous to act like the impact so far has been positive for everyone, or like legalizing and hard-nose crap are the only options. I think it undermines trust and pits different parts of Portland against each other. It’s easy to get a laugh or an eye roll from my neighbors on the north side of town when I pass along some of the ”obvious” solutions my friends and colleagues from the west side have shared with me. Please consider our perspective: even if we double the police force and start addressing crime more promptly, our neighborhood is still worse off because we have more crime. Other parts of the city don’t seem to appreciate that.