7 ms·

I Wasn't Paid

325 points by laurenceputra 15y ago

motters 15y ago
Well, it's a nice idea but I think this is high risk. In the very distant past when I was young and naive there were occasions on which I didn't get paid for commercial work, so I can sympathize with that. However, naming and shaming rogue customers could just be a recipe for libel lawsuits.
e-dard 15y ago
I'd do something about the kerning of the h1 element, it's not particularly pleasant in my opinion.
jeremymcanally 15y ago
While I sometimes wish something like this existed, it seems ripe for abuse and/or open to some sort of libel law violation should it get out of control.
- akinsgre 15y ago
  I think they should allow for rebuttals; like Amazon does with it's feedback. There are always two sides to a story.
  - gk1 15y ago
    Even with rebuttals, the very name of the website suggests that the employer is in the wrong.
- Alex3917 15y ago
  Isn't it already explicitly illegal to post lists of customers who haven't paid in your store? IANAL, but I seem to remember that the case law is already pretty settled on this one.
  - stevoski 15y ago
    illegal where? Perhaps in some juridictions - which one are you referring to?
    - shareme 15y ago
      The difference will be whether its stated as factual and is factual or stated as opinion.. As I understand it if its factual stated and grossly wrong the poster can be charged civilly
      - regularfry 15y ago
        Whether truth is a defence against libel also depends on the jurisdiction.
  - chc 15y ago
    IANAL, but having been previously affiliated with a company that did this, my understanding as far as general US law goes is that while it's illegal for collectors to name names, the original creditor can name and shame all he wants as long as he doesn't disclose truly private information ("This is the jerk's SSN!") and sticks to facts he can prove if a libel suit arises.
swombat 15y ago
How long before this gets sued for libel?
- dangrossman 15y ago
  The site wouldn't be liable. A lawyer would tell his client that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicatio... Anyone could post libelous statements on the 50+ million blogs and forums out there, yet you've never seen "Warn HN: Monitor your blog comments for libel" -- that's because you can't be treated as the publisher or speaker, so can't be held liable for what was said.
  - getsat 15y ago
    This, and the fact that the truth can not be libelous. As long as you're not misrepresenting a claim, you're fine.
    - WettowelReactor 15y ago
      You still need to defend yourself against the suits no matter how unjustified. That is not a free activity in terms of money or time.
    - Ergomane 15y ago
      That depends on your location. In NL the truth can get you in a lot of trouble. Also not that the TOS tries to make the submitter liable for all damages _and_ cost : http://iwasntpaid.com/terms_of_submission http://iwasntpaid.com/terms_of_submission
      - getsat 15y ago
        If you stole money from me, I sued you and won the lawsuit, and then published an article about how you stole from me, that could be construed as being libelous?
rglover 15y ago
Not the best route to handle this. Make sure you have a decent lawyer on hand (and a good contrct) when dealing with delinquent clients. Something like this will guarantee that you'll never get paid.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- derefr 15y ago
  > Something like this will guarantee that you'll never get paid. I do believe that if you're at this point, you already believe that you'll never get paid. Otherwise you'd be saying "I wasn't paid yet."
- ghc 15y ago
  Very true. I've been in a similar situation with a lot of money not being paid, and the client didn't care about their reputation being damaged. What they did care about was my lawyer.
- barefoot 15y ago
  At what point does it make sense to involve a lawyer? $5,000? $10,000? Isn't it expensive to legally fight for your payment?
  - gavingmiller 15y ago
    Stipulate in your contract that the losing side has to pay the legal fees for the other party. That way getting paid doesn't cost you more.
    - shabble 15y ago
      Granted incredibly unlikely, but doesn't that open the possibility of: * Rip off developer * Hire incredibly expensive legal team/legal buddy[1] to find small enough loophole in contract * Bill developer for cost of legal as well as rip them off * Profit? [1] How do jurisdictions that auto-award costs handle contingency claims? Is "£0 if I lose, or £1M/hour if we win" a legitimate billing rate? I can't imagine it could be.
unreal37 15y ago
This reminds me of ol' F'd Company. Can't be sued for libel if the story is true.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- scott_s 15y ago
  Yes, you can. You can't lose a libel suit if you're able to prove what you said is true, and it goes to decision. I am not being pedantic. The difference between the two statements is huge, because the amount of time and money it may take you to prove your case could easily bankrupt a person.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - unreal37 15y ago
    Good point.
brador 15y ago
Anyone know what indian libel laws are like?
gk1 15y ago
A much more useful approach would be to educate people about protecting themselves from non-payers. Eg, use an agreement or contract, check references, etc. That would be far more beneficial than a collection of libel and rambling. For instance, the entry from Jan 31 says the person worked for _four_ months without being paid! Why would you work for four months straight without a single intermitent payment (or an advance)?
fredleblanc 15y ago
I agree with others on the legal view, but also, to me this site just focuses on sour grapes. As a result, I can't see anything positive of helpful coming out of it. I'm not going to search a blog each time I get a client to see if they've been written about here. And aside from that, this site will only ever tell one-side of the case. What if the developer did really poor work, missed every deadline by weeks, or the client still says there's work to be done before being paid? All this site shows is angry developers complaining about less-than-ideal clients. For me, that's the kind of talk you have over beers at a bar — you say your piece and then you move on — not something you permanently record into a collection on the web.
- derefr 15y ago
  > What if the developer did really poor work, missed every deadline by weeks, or the client still says there's work to be done before being paid? Then make a place for that kind of post too. Perhaps even create an index that correlates the two accounts, so that people can see both sides of each story, and weigh the evidence for themselves.
ljf 15y ago
What if this happens: I work with a difficult dev/designer for a couple of months trying to bootstap a product. In the end it's not working, we agree to go our own ways, but I keep the name of the product. For what ever reason they get shitty with me, and a month or two down the line when I'm working with someone else they post about me on 'iwasntpaid' - not just once, loads of times - they know a lot about me so they can make it look like a string of unhappy dev/designers are annoyed and I can never be sure who it was posting this. Would the site owner let me/help me remove these? Will they be asking for proof? If not I can see them getting in some interesting legal battles pretty quickly. I think something like: http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ is great - but it is totally open and honest - you state who you are and why you feel you've been ripped off. This anonymous sniping isn't going to help anyone. If someone rips you off write a blog post about it, tell people you work with, or better yet talk to the offending party in person. This feels like bitching-meets-4chan. At least http://www.grouphug.us http://www.grouphug.us tries to keep both sides anonymous.
- gk1 15y ago
  FYI: http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3 http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3 leads to a giant ad for some Canadian pill site.
  - ljf 15y ago
    Really - no adverts when I visit it? Edit: Some sort of IE7 hack/virus/attack? (sorry can't reply to your message for some reason) http://i.imgur.com/r8u2I.png http://i.imgur.com/r8u2I.png - screenshot is with adblock turned on, but I also tried it with it turned off and didn't get it.
    - gk1 15y ago
      I'm on IE 7 (don't ask), so perhaps the ad is the site's way of telling me "F U"? Edit: Screenshot - http://i.imgur.com/5lnJ7.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5lnJ7.jpg
stroboskop 15y ago
Anonymous accusations, no verification and guaranteed reputational damage to those accused: This is a bad idea. If you have legal claims, press charges instead of going down this road. Edit: the first post, an anonymous accusation (by the site's creator?), disappeared shortly after the site showed up on HN. Also, now suddenly submittals are subject to review (by whom?).
napierzaza 15y ago
Nice idea in theory. But ultimately I don't think it will end very good. There are certainly unscrupulous people out there, even contractors. So I wouldn't be surprised if some false or grey claims end up on the site. I don't want to predict possible legal action. But I predict possible legal action.
gpcz 15y ago
This fantastic speech by Mike Monteiro ( http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820 ) explains how you can avoid ever having to use this site as a last resort to get your grievances resolved.
- gavingmiller 15y ago
  This is an absolutely brilliant talk. And if you do any freelance or contract work you can learn something from it. The quote: 'when you hire a lawyer [to handle contracts] you switch from being a design amateur to a design professional' really spoke to me, and it applies equally to programmers.
  - jebblue 15y ago
    I was about to watch it but the page starts out with an F Bomb, if I wanted to aspire to that level of communication I could have stayed in the Navy.
    - minsight 15y ago
      You'd rather not hear profanity than learn how someone managed to eradicate basically all of their client-payment problems?
    - vacri 15y ago
      I find use of 'f bomb' less professional than the use of 'fuck'. It smacks of prejudice, plus it's using slang to deride slang.
Gustomaximus 15y ago
In an ideal world this is great but anonymously posted data only could increase problems with people posting one or many stories about others they just want to harm for personal reasons. While self naming probably increases the chance of legal issues I think people should have the choice to say I am the person he did this to to help credibility. And if one have it all documented there should be nothing to be worried about.
- lizzard 15y ago
  It strikes me that the anonymity is mostly pointless here. It may be meant to protect the accuser of taking a hit to their own reputation, but the accused can just post the accuser's name and their own side of the story in comments or on another site. So in the long run, there wouldn't be much benefit to posting anonymously. We had a discussion about this last weekend at She's Geeky. There are some women's lists that pass around information like, say, managers at {big company} who are known harassers and should be avoided. If we stick to backchannels to share this type of information, we aren't helping, perhaps, the very people (new to a company or a scene) who need it most. If we put the information in public, we suffer the blowback on many fronts; and our vulnerability is greater than that of the accused. I tend to come down on the side of greater transparency, but it may be that the most privileged person still "wins" -- except, as someone pointed out earlier, when 5 developers report similar experiences.
jkolya 15y ago
They should force the developers to put their names. That way people know which developers to stay far away from. Don't go near anyone that would post to something like this.
- laurenceputra 15y ago
  thanks, we have started to enforce it alr :)
dangrossman 15y ago
> People who feel that they have been wrongly accused can now send in feedback that they have been wronged and we will look into it That sounds like a bad idea. You either publish submissions through the website, or you don't publish at all. If you manually take the 'feedback' and turn it into a story, you're now the publisher and lose the legal protections of the Communications Decency Act. Your site was a better idea, legally, before you posted that.
ramy_d 15y ago
Everyone here is saying it, anonymously calling others out by name is wrong and profesionally destructive. This is why we pay lawyers: http://www.dvafoto.com/2011/04/fuck-you-pay-me-a-discussion-of-adventures-in-contracts-negotiation-and-payment/ http://www.dvafoto.com/2011/04/fuck-you-pay-me-a-discussion-...
barefoot 15y ago
How about making it a paid subscription service instead? I would subscribe to that. Developers have their identity confirmed (to avoid anonymous business-bashing) and can freely discuss bad (and possibly good) experiences with businesses. The membership agreement could explain that no emotional or biased comments would be allowed and would encourage some level of explanation of why the client did not pay along with proof in the form of bounced checks, etc...
gavingmiller 15y ago
Ultimately it's your fault as a contractor if you don't get paid. And a site like this does nothing to teach developers, freelances, designers, and the like how to avoid these pitfalls which is why I'll never use it. Why is it your fault? Because as a professional you've not taken the time/money to have a contract created to cover your ass. Contracts exist to protect both parties from each other. And it is your professional duty to know what's in your contract (not a piece meal that you dug up on the internet.) You should be able to explain to your clients what is in your contract, why it's there, and how it benefits them and you.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  The stories I read on the site mentioned contracts, and people still refused to pay, causing the contractors to have to go to court, get a ruling in their favor, and then get the sheriff to go and collect - and that's assuming they have any money or assets left to collect.
- singular 15y ago
  Didn't he have a contract which he used to successfully sue the client with? It didn't seem to make any difference. At the same time I am uneasy with this sort of one-sided public exposure, doesn't feel very professional even if true, and of course without knowing the facts of the matter we don't know whether it is in fact true.
- cgh 15y ago
  It seems that contracts are assumed. These are truly delinquent clients that attempt to weasel out of the contract any way they can. One time, we had a client stiff us for $50,000, contract and all. We delivered a bunch of back-end work and he disappeared. We've never been able to find him.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  >Ultimately it's your fault as a contractor if you don't get paid. Um.. what? It looks like, judging by the first story on the page, there was a contract which he successfully sued the delinquent client with, and it's just taking forever to collect. It's not your fault that the judicial system is an inefficient mess and that people lie.
deleted 15y ago
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crag 15y ago
One dangerous thing that stands out is this "kill switch". VERY bad idea. Now you are liable for damages. The way to handle this is: When you get the judgement against your "client", slap a lean on his properties equal to the amount owed (and throw in your court costs). That inclues his accounts. All you need is an order from the judge. That's it. That's about all you can do really. Is to go after his assets. Also I'd let the BBB and your local Chamber know. You'd be surprised how effective both these organizations can be.
- driverdan 15y ago
  The BBB is a shakedown and won't do anything about the situation, especially if the company in question is a member.
- Zancarius 15y ago
  > One dangerous thing that stands out is this "kill switch". VERY bad idea. Now you are liable for damages. Agreed. Worse, since that information is now public, not only is he liable but the chances he might be counter-sued are markedly increased. He may technically be in the right, but the law doesn't like vigilante justice.
- shabble 15y ago
  I wonder if it's legal to state upfront in your contract that 'technical measures' are implemented in your work to prevent theft of service (or whatever you call the use of the work product without payment), and are to be deactivated & removed following completion/final payment? The software licence-key approach seems somewhat similar, and I've yet to come across legal proceedings "because we didn't pay the guy and our 30-day demo ran out", although I'm sure it could get more complicated for services rather than actual shrinkwrapped products. On the other hand, you've got the fact that it's laid out in the contract (which is presumed read, rather than just clicked through like a shrinkwrap EULA), and the interesting potential for DMCA/WIPO96'alike anti-circumventation proceedings against clients who refuse to pay and extract the kill-switch code to reactivate. In that theme, is: final_invoice_paid = false; if (!final_invoice_paid) { exit() } a valid "means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner"? My immediate thought is yes, assuming you're still the copyright holder (and you have a copyright assignment on payment clause in contract), but jurisdictional work-for-hire terms might screw you.
patio11 15y ago
This is not a way forward. 1). Work with better clients. You can have invoice collection problems at $50k, too, but they're much less likely than at $500 and you have much better options for... escalation methods at that point. 2). If you're not a bank, stop taking on so much credit risk. Businesses can deal with substantially sterner payment terms than you'd think to offer. If your clients balk, see #1. (Thomas has some suggestions here, too, many of which reduce to "Work for Thomas' clients and charge enough that dealing with their purchasing processes is worth your headaches rather than chasing deadbeats for Snickers money.") 3). Showing up on iamachumpconsultant.com will not enhance your professional reputation, bill rate, or client pool.
- edw519 15y ago
  Patrick, I completely agree with you, which is why I have never publicized my difficulties with problem customers. But something in my reptilian brain really still likes this. Let me tell you why... You say "Work with better clients." Working with better clients means avoiding the bad ones. Avoiding the bad ones means being able to identify them. Being able to identify them means being warned. It's almost like seeing an obstacle in the highway and wanting to warn others going in the opposite direction. But how do you do that? I once had the idea of putting a giant tattoo "Avoid me." on my bad clients' foreheads. The biggest problem with bad clients isn't that they took you, it's that they never go away; they just keep popping up over and over, only to take advantage of others. One former client of mine is the perfect example. He never paid his bills, he was extremely abusive, he was often very unethical, and would do anything to make an extra buck. He would pop up all over the country with a different name, starting the cycle all over again. I recently noticed he just got out of jail with a brand new name and web site. If only I could find a righteous way to warn others, "Run the other way!"
  - patio11 15y ago
    If you want to perform (for lack of a better word) a mitzvah for the community, rather than picking out a single abusive customer, use your experience and teach people how to pattern match. Memo to young Rails developers: "I have an idea for a website. If you build v1.0 I'll pay you a whole thousand dollars and you might get equity if it works very well." has never had a happy ending. (Slight overstatement there, but it won't weigh on my conscience.)
mgkimsal 15y ago
Similar situation, but closer to $9k. Filed a lawsuit in court - still waiting 3.5 years later (NYC). I suspect it'll take a long to collect even after a judgement. Yes, don't extend so much credit - lesson learned (the hard way). I consulted with a number of people debating whether or not to blog about this situation with the person's name. In the end I chose not to at that time, but realized later that this person had another non-payment suit pending which had been filed the day before I started working with him. Had I researched a bit more, I might have found that (but then again, I might not have - you often don't think to do court record searches on potential clients). I ended up not disclosing his name in my blog, but did disclose the location I filed a suit. Anyone wanting to know can go check the public records and find out for themselves. Felt like a decent middle ground, and it's not irrevocably commiting myself to having been the "name and shamer". But without more naming and shaming, this behaviour by some people will continue. I found out later that this guy had also stiffed multiple other parties, who were then coming to me for advice about how to collect. "File a NY lawsuit" was the only answer I had. Perhaps some public naming and shaming would either correct this person's behaviour or at least ward off others from working with him in the future. one person complaining about no payment can be written off as a crank. 5 devs in a 5 month period, all from different areas, would be harder to dismiss.
- vacri 15y ago
  Another middle ground would be to name and shame just to thing that are factually part of the public record: "I am suing John Smith in court for non-payment of $9k for work done 3.5 years ago". Don't go into fiery detail, keep it to the facts that are part of the court record. Of course, the hard part is keeping all the opinion stuff out of the blog posts around the fact-only one.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    right... well, that's almost what I did. saying where it was, letting someone google my name in nyc and look for court records. i've only sued one person in nyc - it wouldn't be that hard. But, publicizing on my blog, yeah. In some ways I think the moment's passed. If/when we ever get to court, I'll release the name then, unless there's some gag order (am I being too dramatic?)
mikecaron 15y ago
I have started to put a clause in my own contracts that's paraphrased like so: I do some work for you and submit it to you for verification. You have x days to verify it. If you fail to verify it or tell me a scheduled date for verification by that date, it goes on github for the world to see and use for free. I.E. "F* U, Pay Me."
- kaffeinecoma 15y ago
  Interesting approach, but what stops the client from using this to his advantage? "Hmm, if I fail to pay, the code becomes open-source, and then I can use it for free."
  - mikecaron 15y ago
    Depends on how much they want to deter competition. This particular company was a hardware video switch; competitors could easily port the same app to their machines and then the client loses the advantage they had previously.
Jayasimhan 15y ago
on the iwasntpaid.com site: I was eager that the service would let me search for the client names and get reviews on them quickly. And providing a very basic template for each story for the author to enter metadata around the story. I think that would be a much better experience for readers and contributors.
- iclelland 15y ago
  > I was eager that the service would let me search for the client names and get reviews on them quickly. That's what I was expecting -- I tried to search for "Martinez" and "Padbury"; two of the names prominently featured in the front page stories right now, and got a "0 results" page for both terms.
deleted 15y ago
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jagbolanos 15y ago
We are currently bootstrapping our startup with some consulting work in iOS and Rails. This is the process that we follow: 1) We discuss the project with the client stating our hourly rates clearly from the beginning and that we also work in our startup so we won't be a "full-time" developer 2) We then make a clear estimation of time and deliverables for the project + time for testing/debugging/QA + time for calls + time to prepare for publication to the App Store. 3) If they accept we make a clear contract with several payments and deliverables. 4) We ask for 20% to 40% upfront payment and then the rest divided by time and deliverable completion. 5) The last payment is conditioned to App Store approval (in case it is iOS) 6) We only give the source code after the last payment is done 7) We keep sending weekly updates usually via TestFlight (when iOS) and use a Google Doc for any observations that they have 8) We have discovered that some clients also want time spent so we always use toggl as time tracking tool. I know there are still risks but at least with the upfront payment and deliverable payments you always keep healthy cashflow, the clients feel they are protected and you feel protected too. This way it's also easier to detect a red flag, in that case you can just stop your development until the payment is done (We actually did that once now and it worked really well).
- Kesty 15y ago
  I completely agree. That and a (very) detailed list of requirement and goals is the best way to go.
frederico 15y ago
Upon reading this article I seem to think that in most cases it's actually the developers fault. Don't be retarded; create a contract for the work you do with your potential employer. I've been doing freelance for quite some time; and did have two clients try to screw me over; however due to the contracts which I setup ahead of time, and having a lawyer send a simple note upon their threat of not paying, quickly remedied this non-paying issue. 1) Cover your ass 2) Setup a reasonable Payment schedule 3) Don't be stupid
bradly 15y ago
ZenCash is new startup that is solving the problem the right way. It can connect with your invoicing service (FreshBooks, Harvest, Blinksale) and then they will contact the client when the refuse to pay. They work with a collection agency so now we the lone web developer can actually force someone to pay. http://www.zencash.com/ http://www.zencash.com/
corywatilo 15y ago
Actually collecting isn't that hard (in the U.S., at least). I won a similar case in small claims and the defendant didn't pay. All I had to do was file a form for the Sheriff's office to collect from him and pay the filing fee (I think around $45, which was then added to the amount to collect). I provided the defendant's bank account info, and when he was unresponsive to the police, they withdrew the amount from his account into an escrow account and then cut me a check for the amount owed and mailed it to me. This can probably be a little more challenging if the account doesn't have sufficient funds in it, but I was happy to see that the system worked. It was a learning process for me (first time I had to do it, and thankfully, knock on wood, the last), but in the end, justice was done and I got paid.
benjohnson 15y ago
My Dad had a folder labeled 'Deadbeats' at this small consulting firm. It was in the conference room - anybody was free to look at it. In the field he was in, word got around quickly so there was a few tardy clients that paid but stipulated that he remove their transgressions from the 'Deadbeats' folder.
- jacques_chester 15y ago
  Sounds like he also needed a "Deadbeats Who Eventually Paid Up" folder as well.
deleted 15y ago
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itsmicks 15y ago
This is basically a rite of passage for all freelancers/lawyers/service workers unfortunately. My rule of thumb: If someone doesn't want to give you at least 20% upfront for a project, you don't want to work with them. Always give yourself checkpoints in the project for partial payments instead of a lump sum at the end.
ChuckMcM 15y ago
In general this sort of site gets sued a lot. For the exemplar site see RipOffReport which has almost more lawsuits than posts it seems. So if you run it for any length of time be sure to have a good legal team already in place. The other thing is that there is an endless supply of bad business deals gone wrong so any individual deal that went south may make the person venting feel better (until they are sued) but they don't contribute to the overall success rate of other folks (except perhaps if they are also dealing with a specific individual or business mentioned). Contrast this with the Nolopress (www.nolo.com) guys who, by example, provide both tools to successfully navigate what may be new territory and provide suitably anonymized examples which demonstrate the problems that you want to prevent. That is a positive outcome to a bad experience, which is shared learning and signs of things to avoid.
- ohashi 15y ago
  I worked on a similar project a while back and definitely got legal threats constantly. Not one ever followed through but I grew tired after a couple years of dealing with it.
junto 15y ago
This is what nasty bad ass debt collectors are for. They'll collect (really they will) and then take a cut. Carlos won't know what hit him. Get some recommendations for good debt collectors in your local area. You are wasting your precious time trying to collect this yourself. Employ them and then you can inform Carlos that it is longer his debt to you but his debt to some burly tattooed biker.
groby_b 15y ago
This strikes me as an exercise in futility. If you can properly document that you should have been paid and haven't, go to court. Posting on a website won't do anything to actually recoup the cost. If you can't prove that, you're setting yourself up for a libel claim. So what exactly is the gain of posting there, except giving in to a temporary desire for revenge?
ryen 15y ago
I recommend to ask for payment at pre-defined milestones. Waiting to get paid at the very end is just asking for trouble.
EGreg 15y ago
How about instead, we have a pool of customers which are GOOD CUSTOMERS but which you in the future might want to move on from, for various reasons? Other developers can pick up the slack -- and some work! They would also be able to have a transition period. This website could even make a small commission from the handoffs. The best way to avoid bad options is knowing where to find a lot of good ones. Then the others have to prove themselves to you, and you can take them or leave them :)
gee_totes 15y ago
I was involved in the case involving Carlos 'Storm' Martinez, who is an amazing post sound mixer and a stand-up guy. I am a little perturbed to see him mentioned on the site. The design of the site in question was good, no doubt, but it was also riddled with a stolen Neutraface2 font face and the HTML didn't validate. And there was no RoR backend; the whole site was hosted on a GoDaddy shared server. From my understanding of the dispute, the site was delivered many months late, and then the designer doubled his price. When Storm refused to pay double for late work, the designer linked in an overlay from a file hosted on Dropbox that announced 'This site was stolen'. That was the 'kill switch'. The designer also made a few blog posts and tweets bragging about his 'kill switch', which he later took down. This lead to a panicked call from Storm to me to move the site over to my servers until the dispute could be resolved. A few days after that, I received a very aggressive e-mail from the designer threatening to sue me for stealing his work. What iwasntpaid.com needs is links to conflict resolution and contract negotiation books, which are important freelancing skills that the designer sorely lacked. You never introduce yourself to a fellow freelance web programmer with "Hi, my name's Jeff, and I'm going to sue you over this dispute I have with another party". Given the designer's history of posting complaints about how he's been screwed out of $500 and then taking them down once he realizes that it might be bad for his reputation, I wouldn't be surprised of that post about Storm gets taken down as well. Also, from my web-stalking around this issue, I wouldn't be surprised if the hours that the designer put in trying to smear Storm across the internets, billed at the designer's normal rate, exceeded the payment he was expecting from Storm. tl;dr: Settle on a rate before you start doing work, and if it's not a flat rate, keep the client up to date with projections of the final bill. PS Carlos 'Storm' Martinez and his team at Creative Mixing are amazing, talented people and I would recommend them to anyone looking for post-sound work. It saddens me to see the post on iwasntpaid.com
- jacques_chester 15y ago
  The ex-law student in me smells the sweet golden smell of defamation in the air.
- john_flintstone 15y ago
  >and the HTML didn't validate Stupid as it is to go down the publicly naming route, what has the HTML validation status of the code got to do with anything? This is a measurement that only means something to guys who measure things - it has nothing to do with business generated, traffic, or the user experience of a website (the true yardsticks of good work).
k-mcgrady 15y ago
I just read the first story on the site. Taking someone to court over $1000 is a waste of time. $1000 may be a lot of money to you (it is to me) but I have faced this problem twice and you are much better spending your time on new projects and forgetting the client. I have found the key to getting paid is milestones. I will not work with someone unless they are willing to pay 50% of the total before I start. This way if they cancel the project you are getting some money for your time. I also make clear to the client they do not need to pay the final 50% until they have the project from me. This way they need to trust me enough to pay the first 50% and I need to trust them that they will pay the final 50%. I've been using this system for the past 12 months and haven't had any problems with clients since. There is a good thread on Programmers Exchange about charging clients (particularly for freelancers): http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/63042/recommended-payment-schedule-for-freelance-development/63062#63062 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/63042/recomme...
davidpoarch 15y ago
I think this issue is very significant these days, with the boom of outsourcing and remote freelance work. For scenarios with no down payment requirement, there's no guarantee the service provider will receive payment at all (and no guarantee the rest of the payment will be paid for the down payment scenario either). And for scenarios where a down payment (or full payment) is paid, there's no guarantee the service will ever be delivered to the requester. And how about scenarios where the wrong service was delivered? And how about if the service provider and requester are not in the same country (how do you go about taking legal action)? I am a co-founder of a nascent third party payments aggregator (TPPA) called PayGuard. We are currently building our Beta, but our system specifically targets such scenarios. And with such capability, our system inherently solves the same issues with material products as well (a market PayPal currently dominates, though it does so extremely unsatisfactorily).
tomkarlo 15y ago
One of the big problems with web consulting and clients that don't pay is that unlike other business situations, these clients often lack physical assets and storefronts that can be used to collect on a judgement from a court. Traditionally, if you had a small claims judgement and it's not paid, you could have the Sheriff or the like serve notice or even put a lien on assets. When a client's business is entirely virtual, there's a risk they'll simply change their mailing address or otherwise dodge a judgement, and it can be very difficult to enforce the claim (or at least not economic to do so.) I've seen this happen a number of times in recent years in situations where the amount ranged from $1500 to $10,000.
deleted 15y ago
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readme 15y ago
This site strikes me as slanderous and defamatory. Anyone posting personal accounts on it of another man's integrity had better be ready to prove their statements true in a court of law. At least in the US, most states have slander and libel laws to protect us from this kind of nonsense. There is already a system of public record and courts to deal with this kind of stuff. If you get ripped off, and you can't sue, you are doing it wrong. TBH, you should be holding back your deliverables until you receive some payment, getting money up front, and so forth. A better name for this site would be "HowIGotRippedOffBecauseImASucker.com"
meapix 15y ago
How about freelancers who never complete work but still get paid? it happened to me.
dgunn 15y ago
Just build a kill switch into the code. If they don't pay, use it.
Simo 15y ago
just for argument sake: 1 - freelancers union is working very hard to pass the Freelancer Payment Protection Act (S4129/A6698) that grant freelancers the same wage protection as traditional employees and require the Department of Labor to pursue freelancers' unpaid wages holding deadbeat executives personally liable for up to $20,000 and jail time. 2 - on the union website you can find the Contract Creator, a free tool that allows you to easily create a strong (and nationally accepted) contract to protect yourself. my2cents
joshfraser 15y ago
The lesson here is never piss off someone with a blog and an audience. His name will forever show up in Google as the guy who didn't pay up.

325 points by laurenceputra 15y ago

Well, it's a nice idea but I think this is high risk. In the very distant past when I was young and naive there were occasions on which I didn't get paid for commercial work, so I can sympathize with that. However, naming and shaming rogue customers could just be a recipe for libel lawsuits.

e-dard 15y ago

I'd do something about the kerning of the h1 element, it's not particularly pleasant in my opinion.

jeremymcanally 15y ago

While I sometimes wish something like this existed, it seems ripe for abuse and/or open to some sort of libel law violation should it get out of control.

akinsgre 15y ago
I think they should allow for rebuttals; like Amazon does with it's feedback. There are always two sides to a story.
- gk1 15y ago
  Even with rebuttals, the very name of the website suggests that the employer is in the wrong.
Alex3917 15y ago
Isn't it already explicitly illegal to post lists of customers who haven't paid in your store? IANAL, but I seem to remember that the case law is already pretty settled on this one.
- stevoski 15y ago
  illegal where? Perhaps in some juridictions - which one are you referring to?
  - shareme 15y ago
    The difference will be whether its stated as factual and is factual or stated as opinion.. As I understand it if its factual stated and grossly wrong the poster can be charged civilly
    - regularfry 15y ago
      Whether truth is a defence against libel also depends on the jurisdiction.
- chc 15y ago
  IANAL, but having been previously affiliated with a company that did this, my understanding as far as general US law goes is that while it's illegal for collectors to name names, the original creditor can name and shame all he wants as long as he doesn't disclose truly private information ("This is the jerk's SSN!") and sticks to facts he can prove if a libel suit arises.

swombat 15y ago

How long before this gets sued for libel?

dangrossman 15y ago
The site wouldn't be liable. A lawyer would tell his client that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicatio... Anyone could post libelous statements on the 50+ million blogs and forums out there, yet you've never seen "Warn HN: Monitor your blog comments for libel" -- that's because you can't be treated as the publisher or speaker, so can't be held liable for what was said.
- getsat 15y ago
  This, and the fact that the truth can not be libelous. As long as you're not misrepresenting a claim, you're fine.
  - WettowelReactor 15y ago
    You still need to defend yourself against the suits no matter how unjustified. That is not a free activity in terms of money or time.
  - Ergomane 15y ago
    That depends on your location. In NL the truth can get you in a lot of trouble. Also not that the TOS tries to make the submitter liable for all damages _and_ cost : http://iwasntpaid.com/terms_of_submission http://iwasntpaid.com/terms_of_submission
    - getsat 15y ago
      If you stole money from me, I sued you and won the lawsuit, and then published an article about how you stole from me, that could be construed as being libelous?

rglover 15y ago

Not the best route to handle this. Make sure you have a decent lawyer on hand (and a good contrct) when dealing with delinquent clients. Something like this will guarantee that you'll never get paid.

deleted 15y ago
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derefr 15y ago
> Something like this will guarantee that you'll never get paid. I do believe that if you're at this point, you already believe that you'll never get paid. Otherwise you'd be saying "I wasn't paid yet."
ghc 15y ago
Very true. I've been in a similar situation with a lot of money not being paid, and the client didn't care about their reputation being damaged. What they did care about was my lawyer.
barefoot 15y ago
At what point does it make sense to involve a lawyer? $5,000? $10,000? Isn't it expensive to legally fight for your payment?
- gavingmiller 15y ago
  Stipulate in your contract that the losing side has to pay the legal fees for the other party. That way getting paid doesn't cost you more.
  - shabble 15y ago
    Granted incredibly unlikely, but doesn't that open the possibility of: * Rip off developer * Hire incredibly expensive legal team/legal buddy[1] to find small enough loophole in contract * Bill developer for cost of legal as well as rip them off * Profit? [1] How do jurisdictions that auto-award costs handle contingency claims? Is "£0 if I lose, or £1M/hour if we win" a legitimate billing rate? I can't imagine it could be.

unreal37 15y ago

This reminds me of ol' F'd Company. Can't be sued for libel if the story is true.

deleted 15y ago
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scott_s 15y ago
Yes, you can. You can't lose a libel suit if you're able to prove what you said is true, and it goes to decision. I am not being pedantic. The difference between the two statements is huge, because the amount of time and money it may take you to prove your case could easily bankrupt a person.
- deleted 15y ago
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- unreal37 15y ago
  Good point.

brador 15y ago

Anyone know what indian libel laws are like?

gk1 15y ago

A much more useful approach would be to educate people about protecting themselves from non-payers. Eg, use an agreement or contract, check references, etc. That would be far more beneficial than a collection of libel and rambling. For instance, the entry from Jan 31 says the person worked for _four_ months without being paid! Why would you work for four months straight without a single intermitent payment (or an advance)?

fredleblanc 15y ago

I agree with others on the legal view, but also, to me this site just focuses on sour grapes. As a result, I can't see anything positive of helpful coming out of it. I'm not going to search a blog each time I get a client to see if they've been written about here. And aside from that, this site will only ever tell one-side of the case. What if the developer did really poor work, missed every deadline by weeks, or the client still says there's work to be done before being paid? All this site shows is angry developers complaining about less-than-ideal clients. For me, that's the kind of talk you have over beers at a bar — you say your piece and then you move on — not something you permanently record into a collection on the web.

derefr 15y ago
> What if the developer did really poor work, missed every deadline by weeks, or the client still says there's work to be done before being paid? Then make a place for that kind of post too. Perhaps even create an index that correlates the two accounts, so that people can see both sides of each story, and weigh the evidence for themselves.

ljf 15y ago

What if this happens: I work with a difficult dev/designer for a couple of months trying to bootstap a product. In the end it's not working, we agree to go our own ways, but I keep the name of the product. For what ever reason they get shitty with me, and a month or two down the line when I'm working with someone else they post about me on 'iwasntpaid' - not just once, loads of times - they know a lot about me so they can make it look like a string of unhappy dev/designers are annoyed and I can never be sure who it was posting this. Would the site owner let me/help me remove these? Will they be asking for proof? If not I can see them getting in some interesting legal battles pretty quickly. I think something like: http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ is great - but it is totally open and honest - you state who you are and why you feel you've been ripped off. This anonymous sniping isn't going to help anyone. If someone rips you off write a blog post about it, tell people you work with, or better yet talk to the offending party in person. This feels like bitching-meets-4chan. At least http://www.grouphug.us http://www.grouphug.us tries to keep both sides anonymous.

gk1 15y ago
FYI: http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3 http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3 leads to a giant ad for some Canadian pill site.
- ljf 15y ago
  Really - no adverts when I visit it? Edit: Some sort of IE7 hack/virus/attack? (sorry can't reply to your message for some reason) http://i.imgur.com/r8u2I.png http://i.imgur.com/r8u2I.png - screenshot is with adblock turned on, but I also tried it with it turned off and didn't get it.
  - gk1 15y ago
    I'm on IE 7 (don't ask), so perhaps the ad is the site's way of telling me "F U"? Edit: Screenshot - http://i.imgur.com/5lnJ7.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5lnJ7.jpg

stroboskop 15y ago

Anonymous accusations, no verification and guaranteed reputational damage to those accused: This is a bad idea. If you have legal claims, press charges instead of going down this road. Edit: the first post, an anonymous accusation (by the site's creator?), disappeared shortly after the site showed up on HN. Also, now suddenly submittals are subject to review (by whom?).

napierzaza 15y ago

Nice idea in theory. But ultimately I don't think it will end very good. There are certainly unscrupulous people out there, even contractors. So I wouldn't be surprised if some false or grey claims end up on the site. I don't want to predict possible legal action. But I predict possible legal action.

gpcz 15y ago

This fantastic speech by Mike Monteiro ( http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820 ) explains how you can avoid ever having to use this site as a last resort to get your grievances resolved.

gavingmiller 15y ago
This is an absolutely brilliant talk. And if you do any freelance or contract work you can learn something from it. The quote: 'when you hire a lawyer [to handle contracts] you switch from being a design amateur to a design professional' really spoke to me, and it applies equally to programmers.
- jebblue 15y ago
  I was about to watch it but the page starts out with an F Bomb, if I wanted to aspire to that level of communication I could have stayed in the Navy.
  - minsight 15y ago
    You'd rather not hear profanity than learn how someone managed to eradicate basically all of their client-payment problems?
  - vacri 15y ago
    I find use of 'f bomb' less professional than the use of 'fuck'. It smacks of prejudice, plus it's using slang to deride slang.

Gustomaximus 15y ago

In an ideal world this is great but anonymously posted data only could increase problems with people posting one or many stories about others they just want to harm for personal reasons. While self naming probably increases the chance of legal issues I think people should have the choice to say I am the person he did this to to help credibility. And if one have it all documented there should be nothing to be worried about.

lizzard 15y ago
It strikes me that the anonymity is mostly pointless here. It may be meant to protect the accuser of taking a hit to their own reputation, but the accused can just post the accuser's name and their own side of the story in comments or on another site. So in the long run, there wouldn't be much benefit to posting anonymously. We had a discussion about this last weekend at She's Geeky. There are some women's lists that pass around information like, say, managers at {big company} who are known harassers and should be avoided. If we stick to backchannels to share this type of information, we aren't helping, perhaps, the very people (new to a company or a scene) who need it most. If we put the information in public, we suffer the blowback on many fronts; and our vulnerability is greater than that of the accused. I tend to come down on the side of greater transparency, but it may be that the most privileged person still "wins" -- except, as someone pointed out earlier, when 5 developers report similar experiences.

jkolya 15y ago

They should force the developers to put their names. That way people know which developers to stay far away from. Don't go near anyone that would post to something like this.

laurenceputra 15y ago
thanks, we have started to enforce it alr :)

dangrossman 15y ago

> People who feel that they have been wrongly accused can now send in feedback that they have been wronged and we will look into it That sounds like a bad idea. You either publish submissions through the website, or you don't publish at all. If you manually take the 'feedback' and turn it into a story, you're now the publisher and lose the legal protections of the Communications Decency Act. Your site was a better idea, legally, before you posted that.

ramy_d 15y ago

Everyone here is saying it, anonymously calling others out by name is wrong and profesionally destructive. This is why we pay lawyers: http://www.dvafoto.com/2011/04/fuck-you-pay-me-a-discussion-of-adventures-in-contracts-negotiation-and-payment/ http://www.dvafoto.com/2011/04/fuck-you-pay-me-a-discussion-...

barefoot 15y ago

How about making it a paid subscription service instead? I would subscribe to that. Developers have their identity confirmed (to avoid anonymous business-bashing) and can freely discuss bad (and possibly good) experiences with businesses. The membership agreement could explain that no emotional or biased comments would be allowed and would encourage some level of explanation of why the client did not pay along with proof in the form of bounced checks, etc...

gavingmiller 15y ago

Ultimately it's your fault as a contractor if you don't get paid. And a site like this does nothing to teach developers, freelances, designers, and the like how to avoid these pitfalls which is why I'll never use it. Why is it your fault? Because as a professional you've not taken the time/money to have a contract created to cover your ass. Contracts exist to protect both parties from each other. And it is your professional duty to know what's in your contract (not a piece meal that you dug up on the internet.) You should be able to explain to your clients what is in your contract, why it's there, and how it benefits them and you.

pavel_lishin 15y ago
The stories I read on the site mentioned contracts, and people still refused to pay, causing the contractors to have to go to court, get a ruling in their favor, and then get the sheriff to go and collect - and that's assuming they have any money or assets left to collect.
singular 15y ago
Didn't he have a contract which he used to successfully sue the client with? It didn't seem to make any difference. At the same time I am uneasy with this sort of one-sided public exposure, doesn't feel very professional even if true, and of course without knowing the facts of the matter we don't know whether it is in fact true.
cgh 15y ago
It seems that contracts are assumed. These are truly delinquent clients that attempt to weasel out of the contract any way they can. One time, we had a client stiff us for $50,000, contract and all. We delivered a bunch of back-end work and he disappeared. We've never been able to find him.
Karunamon 15y ago
>Ultimately it's your fault as a contractor if you don't get paid. Um.. what? It looks like, judging by the first story on the page, there was a contract which he successfully sued the delinquent client with, and it's just taking forever to collect. It's not your fault that the judicial system is an inefficient mess and that people lie.

deleted 15y ago

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crag 15y ago

One dangerous thing that stands out is this "kill switch". VERY bad idea. Now you are liable for damages. The way to handle this is: When you get the judgement against your "client", slap a lean on his properties equal to the amount owed (and throw in your court costs). That inclues his accounts. All you need is an order from the judge. That's it. That's about all you can do really. Is to go after his assets. Also I'd let the BBB and your local Chamber know. You'd be surprised how effective both these organizations can be.

driverdan 15y ago
The BBB is a shakedown and won't do anything about the situation, especially if the company in question is a member.
Zancarius 15y ago
> One dangerous thing that stands out is this "kill switch". VERY bad idea. Now you are liable for damages. Agreed. Worse, since that information is now public, not only is he liable but the chances he might be counter-sued are markedly increased. He may technically be in the right, but the law doesn't like vigilante justice.
shabble 15y ago
I wonder if it's legal to state upfront in your contract that 'technical measures' are implemented in your work to prevent theft of service (or whatever you call the use of the work product without payment), and are to be deactivated & removed following completion/final payment? The software licence-key approach seems somewhat similar, and I've yet to come across legal proceedings "because we didn't pay the guy and our 30-day demo ran out", although I'm sure it could get more complicated for services rather than actual shrinkwrapped products. On the other hand, you've got the fact that it's laid out in the contract (which is presumed read, rather than just clicked through like a shrinkwrap EULA), and the interesting potential for DMCA/WIPO96'alike anti-circumventation proceedings against clients who refuse to pay and extract the kill-switch code to reactivate. In that theme, is: final_invoice_paid = false; if (!final_invoice_paid) { exit() } a valid "means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner"? My immediate thought is yes, assuming you're still the copyright holder (and you have a copyright assignment on payment clause in contract), but jurisdictional work-for-hire terms might screw you.

patio11 15y ago

This is not a way forward. 1). Work with better clients. You can have invoice collection problems at $50k, too, but they're much less likely than at $500 and you have much better options for... escalation methods at that point. 2). If you're not a bank, stop taking on so much credit risk. Businesses can deal with substantially sterner payment terms than you'd think to offer. If your clients balk, see #1. (Thomas has some suggestions here, too, many of which reduce to "Work for Thomas' clients and charge enough that dealing with their purchasing processes is worth your headaches rather than chasing deadbeats for Snickers money.") 3). Showing up on iamachumpconsultant.com will not enhance your professional reputation, bill rate, or client pool.

edw519 15y ago
Patrick, I completely agree with you, which is why I have never publicized my difficulties with problem customers. But something in my reptilian brain really still likes this. Let me tell you why... You say "Work with better clients." Working with better clients means avoiding the bad ones. Avoiding the bad ones means being able to identify them. Being able to identify them means being warned. It's almost like seeing an obstacle in the highway and wanting to warn others going in the opposite direction. But how do you do that? I once had the idea of putting a giant tattoo "Avoid me." on my bad clients' foreheads. The biggest problem with bad clients isn't that they took you, it's that they never go away; they just keep popping up over and over, only to take advantage of others. One former client of mine is the perfect example. He never paid his bills, he was extremely abusive, he was often very unethical, and would do anything to make an extra buck. He would pop up all over the country with a different name, starting the cycle all over again. I recently noticed he just got out of jail with a brand new name and web site. If only I could find a righteous way to warn others, "Run the other way!"
- patio11 15y ago
  If you want to perform (for lack of a better word) a mitzvah for the community, rather than picking out a single abusive customer, use your experience and teach people how to pattern match. Memo to young Rails developers: "I have an idea for a website. If you build v1.0 I'll pay you a whole thousand dollars and you might get equity if it works very well." has never had a happy ending. (Slight overstatement there, but it won't weigh on my conscience.)

mgkimsal 15y ago

Similar situation, but closer to $9k. Filed a lawsuit in court - still waiting 3.5 years later (NYC). I suspect it'll take a long to collect even after a judgement. Yes, don't extend so much credit - lesson learned (the hard way). I consulted with a number of people debating whether or not to blog about this situation with the person's name. In the end I chose not to at that time, but realized later that this person had another non-payment suit pending which had been filed the day before I started working with him. Had I researched a bit more, I might have found that (but then again, I might not have - you often don't think to do court record searches on potential clients). I ended up not disclosing his name in my blog, but did disclose the location I filed a suit. Anyone wanting to know can go check the public records and find out for themselves. Felt like a decent middle ground, and it's not irrevocably commiting myself to having been the "name and shamer". But without more naming and shaming, this behaviour by some people will continue. I found out later that this guy had also stiffed multiple other parties, who were then coming to me for advice about how to collect. "File a NY lawsuit" was the only answer I had. Perhaps some public naming and shaming would either correct this person's behaviour or at least ward off others from working with him in the future. one person complaining about no payment can be written off as a crank. 5 devs in a 5 month period, all from different areas, would be harder to dismiss.

vacri 15y ago
Another middle ground would be to name and shame just to thing that are factually part of the public record: "I am suing John Smith in court for non-payment of $9k for work done 3.5 years ago". Don't go into fiery detail, keep it to the facts that are part of the court record. Of course, the hard part is keeping all the opinion stuff out of the blog posts around the fact-only one.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  right... well, that's almost what I did. saying where it was, letting someone google my name in nyc and look for court records. i've only sued one person in nyc - it wouldn't be that hard. But, publicizing on my blog, yeah. In some ways I think the moment's passed. If/when we ever get to court, I'll release the name then, unless there's some gag order (am I being too dramatic?)

mikecaron 15y ago

I have started to put a clause in my own contracts that's paraphrased like so: I do some work for you and submit it to you for verification. You have x days to verify it. If you fail to verify it or tell me a scheduled date for verification by that date, it goes on github for the world to see and use for free. I.E. "F* U, Pay Me."

kaffeinecoma 15y ago
Interesting approach, but what stops the client from using this to his advantage? "Hmm, if I fail to pay, the code becomes open-source, and then I can use it for free."
- mikecaron 15y ago
  Depends on how much they want to deter competition. This particular company was a hardware video switch; competitors could easily port the same app to their machines and then the client loses the advantage they had previously.

Jayasimhan 15y ago

on the iwasntpaid.com site: I was eager that the service would let me search for the client names and get reviews on them quickly. And providing a very basic template for each story for the author to enter metadata around the story. I think that would be a much better experience for readers and contributors.

iclelland 15y ago
> I was eager that the service would let me search for the client names and get reviews on them quickly. That's what I was expecting -- I tried to search for "Martinez" and "Padbury"; two of the names prominently featured in the front page stories right now, and got a "0 results" page for both terms.

deleted 15y ago

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jagbolanos 15y ago

We are currently bootstrapping our startup with some consulting work in iOS and Rails. This is the process that we follow: 1) We discuss the project with the client stating our hourly rates clearly from the beginning and that we also work in our startup so we won't be a "full-time" developer 2) We then make a clear estimation of time and deliverables for the project + time for testing/debugging/QA + time for calls + time to prepare for publication to the App Store. 3) If they accept we make a clear contract with several payments and deliverables. 4) We ask for 20% to 40% upfront payment and then the rest divided by time and deliverable completion. 5) The last payment is conditioned to App Store approval (in case it is iOS) 6) We only give the source code after the last payment is done 7) We keep sending weekly updates usually via TestFlight (when iOS) and use a Google Doc for any observations that they have 8) We have discovered that some clients also want time spent so we always use toggl as time tracking tool. I know there are still risks but at least with the upfront payment and deliverable payments you always keep healthy cashflow, the clients feel they are protected and you feel protected too. This way it's also easier to detect a red flag, in that case you can just stop your development until the payment is done (We actually did that once now and it worked really well).

Kesty 15y ago
I completely agree. That and a (very) detailed list of requirement and goals is the best way to go.

frederico 15y ago

Upon reading this article I seem to think that in most cases it's actually the developers fault. Don't be retarded; create a contract for the work you do with your potential employer. I've been doing freelance for quite some time; and did have two clients try to screw me over; however due to the contracts which I setup ahead of time, and having a lawyer send a simple note upon their threat of not paying, quickly remedied this non-paying issue. 1) Cover your ass 2) Setup a reasonable Payment schedule 3) Don't be stupid

bradly 15y ago

ZenCash is new startup that is solving the problem the right way. It can connect with your invoicing service (FreshBooks, Harvest, Blinksale) and then they will contact the client when the refuse to pay. They work with a collection agency so now we the lone web developer can actually force someone to pay. http://www.zencash.com/ http://www.zencash.com/

corywatilo 15y ago

Actually collecting isn't that hard (in the U.S., at least). I won a similar case in small claims and the defendant didn't pay. All I had to do was file a form for the Sheriff's office to collect from him and pay the filing fee (I think around $45, which was then added to the amount to collect). I provided the defendant's bank account info, and when he was unresponsive to the police, they withdrew the amount from his account into an escrow account and then cut me a check for the amount owed and mailed it to me. This can probably be a little more challenging if the account doesn't have sufficient funds in it, but I was happy to see that the system worked. It was a learning process for me (first time I had to do it, and thankfully, knock on wood, the last), but in the end, justice was done and I got paid.

benjohnson 15y ago

My Dad had a folder labeled 'Deadbeats' at this small consulting firm. It was in the conference room - anybody was free to look at it. In the field he was in, word got around quickly so there was a few tardy clients that paid but stipulated that he remove their transgressions from the 'Deadbeats' folder.

jacques_chester 15y ago
Sounds like he also needed a "Deadbeats Who Eventually Paid Up" folder as well.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

itsmicks 15y ago

This is basically a rite of passage for all freelancers/lawyers/service workers unfortunately. My rule of thumb: If someone doesn't want to give you at least 20% upfront for a project, you don't want to work with them. Always give yourself checkpoints in the project for partial payments instead of a lump sum at the end.

ChuckMcM 15y ago

In general this sort of site gets sued a lot. For the exemplar site see RipOffReport which has almost more lawsuits than posts it seems. So if you run it for any length of time be sure to have a good legal team already in place. The other thing is that there is an endless supply of bad business deals gone wrong so any individual deal that went south may make the person venting feel better (until they are sued) but they don't contribute to the overall success rate of other folks (except perhaps if they are also dealing with a specific individual or business mentioned). Contrast this with the Nolopress (www.nolo.com) guys who, by example, provide both tools to successfully navigate what may be new territory and provide suitably anonymized examples which demonstrate the problems that you want to prevent. That is a positive outcome to a bad experience, which is shared learning and signs of things to avoid.

ohashi 15y ago
I worked on a similar project a while back and definitely got legal threats constantly. Not one ever followed through but I grew tired after a couple years of dealing with it.

junto 15y ago

This is what nasty bad ass debt collectors are for. They'll collect (really they will) and then take a cut. Carlos won't know what hit him. Get some recommendations for good debt collectors in your local area. You are wasting your precious time trying to collect this yourself. Employ them and then you can inform Carlos that it is longer his debt to you but his debt to some burly tattooed biker.

groby_b 15y ago

This strikes me as an exercise in futility. If you can properly document that you should have been paid and haven't, go to court. Posting on a website won't do anything to actually recoup the cost. If you can't prove that, you're setting yourself up for a libel claim. So what exactly is the gain of posting there, except giving in to a temporary desire for revenge?

ryen 15y ago

I recommend to ask for payment at pre-defined milestones. Waiting to get paid at the very end is just asking for trouble.

EGreg 15y ago

How about instead, we have a pool of customers which are GOOD CUSTOMERS but which you in the future might want to move on from, for various reasons? Other developers can pick up the slack -- and some work! They would also be able to have a transition period. This website could even make a small commission from the handoffs. The best way to avoid bad options is knowing where to find a lot of good ones. Then the others have to prove themselves to you, and you can take them or leave them :)

gee_totes 15y ago

I was involved in the case involving Carlos 'Storm' Martinez, who is an amazing post sound mixer and a stand-up guy. I am a little perturbed to see him mentioned on the site. The design of the site in question was good, no doubt, but it was also riddled with a stolen Neutraface2 font face and the HTML didn't validate. And there was no RoR backend; the whole site was hosted on a GoDaddy shared server. From my understanding of the dispute, the site was delivered many months late, and then the designer doubled his price. When Storm refused to pay double for late work, the designer linked in an overlay from a file hosted on Dropbox that announced 'This site was stolen'. That was the 'kill switch'. The designer also made a few blog posts and tweets bragging about his 'kill switch', which he later took down. This lead to a panicked call from Storm to me to move the site over to my servers until the dispute could be resolved. A few days after that, I received a very aggressive e-mail from the designer threatening to sue me for stealing his work. What iwasntpaid.com needs is links to conflict resolution and contract negotiation books, which are important freelancing skills that the designer sorely lacked. You never introduce yourself to a fellow freelance web programmer with "Hi, my name's Jeff, and I'm going to sue you over this dispute I have with another party". Given the designer's history of posting complaints about how he's been screwed out of $500 and then taking them down once he realizes that it might be bad for his reputation, I wouldn't be surprised of that post about Storm gets taken down as well. Also, from my web-stalking around this issue, I wouldn't be surprised if the hours that the designer put in trying to smear Storm across the internets, billed at the designer's normal rate, exceeded the payment he was expecting from Storm. tl;dr: Settle on a rate before you start doing work, and if it's not a flat rate, keep the client up to date with projections of the final bill. PS Carlos 'Storm' Martinez and his team at Creative Mixing are amazing, talented people and I would recommend them to anyone looking for post-sound work. It saddens me to see the post on iwasntpaid.com

jacques_chester 15y ago
The ex-law student in me smells the sweet golden smell of defamation in the air.
john_flintstone 15y ago
>and the HTML didn't validate Stupid as it is to go down the publicly naming route, what has the HTML validation status of the code got to do with anything? This is a measurement that only means something to guys who measure things - it has nothing to do with business generated, traffic, or the user experience of a website (the true yardsticks of good work).

k-mcgrady 15y ago

I just read the first story on the site. Taking someone to court over $1000 is a waste of time. $1000 may be a lot of money to you (it is to me) but I have faced this problem twice and you are much better spending your time on new projects and forgetting the client. I have found the key to getting paid is milestones. I will not work with someone unless they are willing to pay 50% of the total before I start. This way if they cancel the project you are getting some money for your time. I also make clear to the client they do not need to pay the final 50% until they have the project from me. This way they need to trust me enough to pay the first 50% and I need to trust them that they will pay the final 50%. I've been using this system for the past 12 months and haven't had any problems with clients since. There is a good thread on Programmers Exchange about charging clients (particularly for freelancers): http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/63042/recommended-payment-schedule-for-freelance-development/63062#63062 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/63042/recomme...

davidpoarch 15y ago

I think this issue is very significant these days, with the boom of outsourcing and remote freelance work. For scenarios with no down payment requirement, there's no guarantee the service provider will receive payment at all (and no guarantee the rest of the payment will be paid for the down payment scenario either). And for scenarios where a down payment (or full payment) is paid, there's no guarantee the service will ever be delivered to the requester. And how about scenarios where the wrong service was delivered? And how about if the service provider and requester are not in the same country (how do you go about taking legal action)? I am a co-founder of a nascent third party payments aggregator (TPPA) called PayGuard. We are currently building our Beta, but our system specifically targets such scenarios. And with such capability, our system inherently solves the same issues with material products as well (a market PayPal currently dominates, though it does so extremely unsatisfactorily).

tomkarlo 15y ago

One of the big problems with web consulting and clients that don't pay is that unlike other business situations, these clients often lack physical assets and storefronts that can be used to collect on a judgement from a court. Traditionally, if you had a small claims judgement and it's not paid, you could have the Sheriff or the like serve notice or even put a lien on assets. When a client's business is entirely virtual, there's a risk they'll simply change their mailing address or otherwise dodge a judgement, and it can be very difficult to enforce the claim (or at least not economic to do so.) I've seen this happen a number of times in recent years in situations where the amount ranged from $1500 to $10,000.

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readme 15y ago

This site strikes me as slanderous and defamatory. Anyone posting personal accounts on it of another man's integrity had better be ready to prove their statements true in a court of law. At least in the US, most states have slander and libel laws to protect us from this kind of nonsense. There is already a system of public record and courts to deal with this kind of stuff. If you get ripped off, and you can't sue, you are doing it wrong. TBH, you should be holding back your deliverables until you receive some payment, getting money up front, and so forth. A better name for this site would be "HowIGotRippedOffBecauseImASucker.com"

meapix 15y ago

How about freelancers who never complete work but still get paid? it happened to me.

dgunn 15y ago

Just build a kill switch into the code. If they don't pay, use it.

Simo 15y ago

just for argument sake: 1 - freelancers union is working very hard to pass the Freelancer Payment Protection Act (S4129/A6698) that grant freelancers the same wage protection as traditional employees and require the Department of Labor to pursue freelancers' unpaid wages holding deadbeat executives personally liable for up to $20,000 and jail time. 2 - on the union website you can find the Contract Creator, a free tool that allows you to easily create a strong (and nationally accepted) contract to protect yourself. my2cents

joshfraser 15y ago

The lesson here is never piss off someone with a blog and an audience. His name will forever show up in Google as the guy who didn't pay up.