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> But, Mr. Rector said, previous experiments in cash assistance, like a “negative income tax” program for the poor in the 1970s, showed ... negative impacts on

> But, Mr. Rector said, previous experiments in cash assistance, like a “negative income tax” program for the poor in the 1970s, showed ... negative impacts on marriage that lasted long after the efforts ended. It feels like using marriage volume or divorce volume as a negative signal is a terrible idea. People not feeling forced into marriage because it's more or less necessary to get by or progress in a post-suffrage economy for the working class is probably a good thing. The couple who raised me each noted it had been at least partially rooted in economics, and if they had more time to figure things out, they probably wouldn't have gotten married. It worked out to a degree for them, they have some degree of happiness, some of the time; they love one another. It also has caused immense harm: They share nothing in common, they fight all the time due to fundamentally different styles of communication and relatively different belief systems. If an increase in the divorce rate happens due to better economic conditions, this probably signals there were a lot of couplings that were not really good for the participants, but necessary to maintain a certain quality of life. It also could signal people leaving abusers. Is keeping "zombie relationships" worth it?

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
I'm no fan of marriage the institution but the results are clear. Policies that incentivize couples who would be married to not marry leads to worse outcomes for both parties at scale as well as any kids. It is regrettable that some may feel trapped in marriages that aren't working but the numbers don't lie. I don't want to make this a race thing because it's not but look at what happened to the urban blacks who had this kind of policy peddled hard at them starting in the 1960s. They regressed on tons of metrics that are closely tied to and both predict and are predicted by household stability. Your advocating for something that has been tried and failed. (That said, perhaps the above would not be the case, or at least not to the same degree if women and men weren't treated differently with regard to child custody and men had the option of being single fathers)
- TrinaryWorksToo 4y ago
  What numbers are you referring to?
  - nwah1 4y ago
    The well-known numbers that have been known since the Moynihan Report.
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      Come on, give its full title...
      - toomanyrichies 4y ago
        I didn't know what it was either. OP is likely referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For... Commonly known as the Moynihan Report. It has its supporters and its detractors. I have no opinion on it since this is the first I'm hearing of it.
      - GauntletWizard 4y ago
        At the time, the title was the opposite of a slur. Now, it would paint the report in a different light.
      - gotoeleven 4y ago
        [flagged]
        quxbar 4y ago
        Not so much chaff as a point that the thing itself is so outdated our very language has had time to radically change.
        RC_ITR 4y ago
        I will assume you've read the full document and are fine with the things it says, since you're so confident it's a well written/thought-out piece that just accidentally has an extremely outdated name. I think it's a tough argument to make that single-mothers lead to resentful anti-social children, but, hey, maybe I should be more open-minded. >...The primary unit may again become mother and child, the biologically given, and the special conditions under which man has held his social traditions in trust are violated and distorted. E. Franklin Frazier makes clear that at the time of emancipation Negro women were already “accustomed to playing the dominant role in family and marriage relations” and that this role persisted in the decades of rural life that followed... ...Although the families studied were white, the pattern would clearly seem to be a general one, and apply to Negro families as well. The first two stages end with the exhaustion of credit and the entry of the wife into the labor force. The father is no longer the provider and the elder children become resentful. The third stage is the critical one of commencing a new day-to-day existence. At this point two women are in charge: “Consider the fact that relief investigators or case workers are normally women and deal with the housewife. Already suffering a loss in prestige and authority in the family because of his failure to be the chief bread winner, the male head of the family feels deeply this obvious transfer of planning for the family’s well-being to two women, one of them an outsider. His role is reduced to that of errand boy to and from the relief office.”
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Was there anything else happening to black americans in the second half of the 20th century?
  - nxm 4y ago
    Anything worse than the first half of the 20th century, when nuclear families were in tact?
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      More granular targeting of black communities by federal and state governments through the massive shift in economic policies perhaps.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  >They regressed on tons of metrics that are closely tied to and both predict and are predicted by household stability. Sure, Black people are also living a lot longer which seems like a good outcome in terms of quality of life. [1] [1]https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-black-and-white-americans-closes-nearly-50-30-years https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  is there data viewable online that you refer to?
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

I'm no fan of marriage the institution but the results are clear. Policies that incentivize couples who would be married to not marry leads to worse outcomes for both parties at scale as well as any kids. It is regrettable that some may feel trapped in marriages that aren't working but the numbers don't lie. I don't want to make this a race thing because it's not but look at what happened to the urban blacks who had this kind of policy peddled hard at them starting in the 1960s. They regressed on tons of metrics that are closely tied to and both predict and are predicted by household stability. Your advocating for something that has been tried and failed. (That said, perhaps the above would not be the case, or at least not to the same degree if women and men weren't treated differently with regard to child custody and men had the option of being single fathers)

TrinaryWorksToo 4y ago
What numbers are you referring to?
- nwah1 4y ago
  The well-known numbers that have been known since the Moynihan Report.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    Come on, give its full title...
    - toomanyrichies 4y ago
      I didn't know what it was either. OP is likely referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For... Commonly known as the Moynihan Report. It has its supporters and its detractors. I have no opinion on it since this is the first I'm hearing of it.
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      At the time, the title was the opposite of a slur. Now, it would paint the report in a different light.
    - gotoeleven 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - quxbar 4y ago
        Not so much chaff as a point that the thing itself is so outdated our very language has had time to radically change.
      - RC_ITR 4y ago
        I will assume you've read the full document and are fine with the things it says, since you're so confident it's a well written/thought-out piece that just accidentally has an extremely outdated name. I think it's a tough argument to make that single-mothers lead to resentful anti-social children, but, hey, maybe I should be more open-minded. >...The primary unit may again become mother and child, the biologically given, and the special conditions under which man has held his social traditions in trust are violated and distorted. E. Franklin Frazier makes clear that at the time of emancipation Negro women were already “accustomed to playing the dominant role in family and marriage relations” and that this role persisted in the decades of rural life that followed... ...Although the families studied were white, the pattern would clearly seem to be a general one, and apply to Negro families as well. The first two stages end with the exhaustion of credit and the entry of the wife into the labor force. The father is no longer the provider and the elder children become resentful. The third stage is the critical one of commencing a new day-to-day existence. At this point two women are in charge: “Consider the fact that relief investigators or case workers are normally women and deal with the housewife. Already suffering a loss in prestige and authority in the family because of his failure to be the chief bread winner, the male head of the family feels deeply this obvious transfer of planning for the family’s well-being to two women, one of them an outsider. His role is reduced to that of errand boy to and from the relief office.”
giraffe_lady 4y ago
Was there anything else happening to black americans in the second half of the 20th century?
- nxm 4y ago
  Anything worse than the first half of the 20th century, when nuclear families were in tact?
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    More granular targeting of black communities by federal and state governments through the massive shift in economic policies perhaps.
RC_ITR 4y ago
>They regressed on tons of metrics that are closely tied to and both predict and are predicted by household stability. Sure, Black people are also living a lot longer which seems like a good outcome in terms of quality of life. [1] [1]https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-black-and-white-americans-closes-nearly-50-30-years https://spia.princeton.edu/news/life-expectancy-gap-between-...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jjtheblunt 4y ago
is there data viewable online that you refer to?

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]