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Just to give a little context as a pilot: It is the job of the tower controller to decide who uses the runway when. There are often multiple planes waiting to t
by zackbloom 4y ago
Just to give a little context as a pilot: It is the job of the tower controller to decide who uses the runway when. There are often multiple planes waiting to take off, and multiple planes nearing the airport to land. It's not uncommon for a tower controller to allow a plane to takeoff while another is approaching the runway. The theory is, of course, that the flight will depart in plenty of time.
In this case, the controller failed to tell the departing flight to hurry (the references to 'no delay' or 'immediate' in the blog post), AND frankly timed things pretty close given the weather. Without the ability to actually see the approaching plane, or perhaps even the plane on the ground, it will probably be found that timing a departure that close at all was reckless. That said, I feel for these tower controllers, it's not common for many planes to get stacked up waiting to depart, and it is their job to get them out. What may have worked just fine on a clear-weather day simply became too dangerous on that day.
The official manual for air traffic controllers in the US is the FAA Order JO 7110.65W [1], if anyone cares to review it.
1 - https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf
- ninjagoo 4y agoYes, agreed - this certainly appears to lean towards ATC error given the conditions. Maybe the ATC rulebook needs to be updated for conditions, maybe it doesn't. And it might be time to think about TCAS extensions to ground ops for aircraft with clearances?
- SQueeeeeL 4y agoI'm not sure how many people know this, but one of the first instances of "union busting" ever committed by the US federal govt was against air traffic controllers. The job used to be extremely competitive and prestigious, but overall lower wages and security has made it way harder to attract as many highly talented individuals. And with how many rules there are in that pdf, it's shocking we don't see multiple accidents a year.
- bilekas 4y agoI don't knock unions but I will add : > The median annual wage for air traffic controllers was $129,750 in May 2021 SOME unions do take advantage, given the traffic controllers' 'single point of failure' it can be very attractive for some unions who are greedy. Again I reiterate, unions are not a bad idea, just not all of them are solely in the interests of the actual employees.
- SQueeeeeL 4y agoI personally think stability and having some bureaucrat monitoring hours is good. I don't want my air traffic controllers popping pills and pulling double shifts, or showing up to work drunk because they're worried about getting fired for calling in sick. People with dangerous jobs need to be kept safe from themselves
- bilekas 4y ago> showing up to work drunk because they're worried about getting fired for calling in sick Much like air hosts and pilots, air traffic controllers (at least in the EU) are tested frequently for substance issues including alcohol. A friends father who was an air traffic controller was tested daily for the very reason you mention. Nobody WANTS an accident. > People with dangerous jobs need to be kept safe from themselves Absolutely agree, they're professionals though and well trained. I believe they can be responsible adults. That's why it's so rare to see unfortunate mistakes like this seems to be.
- phpisthebest 4y ago>>tested daily for the very reason you mention Which also limits the hiring pool as many people, myself included, would refuse to be tested daily on principle. Hell I object to pre-employment screenings. And I have not drunk a drop of Alcohol in over 25 years, nor done any drugs, dont smoke, nothing. That said I am not taking your little test to prove that to you unless you have a reasonable articulable reason to suspect I may be under said influence.
- 4y ago
- srge 4y agoAir trafic controller strikes have plagued our country (France) for many years and I see no indication that it makes our flight safety better
- Kuinox 4y agoFlight in airports are not safe without air controller. It doesn't make it better, it's a requirement to safety.
- cm2187 4y agoIn fact I heard some stories of nepotism in another european country. Not convinced it is an elite either.
- camgunz 4y agoNot to be snarky, but these last couple close calls in the US feel like indication to me.
- _cenw 4y agoIn 2020, ATC directed an incoming United 787 on the wrong runway at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport. The only reason nothing terrible happened is that the Easyjet pilot on the wrong runway called for go-around after looking out the window, moments before the would-be collision. Didn't make it beyond aviation news, probably because recording ATC is not allowed in France. Human error will creep up everywhere, all you can control is the frequency.
- jeffrallen 4y agoSee also the 1999 documentary, Pushing Tin, for an exploration of the highly talented individuals employed by the FAA. /s
- dave78 4y agoI always assume that a movie like Pushing Tin is about as accurate of a portrayal of the job of ATC as Swordfish or Antitrust is for software development.
- coredog64 4y agoPATCO went on an illegal strike, continued the strike in contravention of court orders, and then remained on strike after a deadline from the president. They could have returned prior to the final deadline, they could have had a sick-out, they could have worked to rule. I’m sympathetic to labor demands, but if your oath of office makes it illegal to strike and you participate in a walkout, well, that’s on you.
- CydeWeys 4y agoHow convenient to make strikes illegal. That disarms the union of one of its most potent weapons in ensuring its members get their due.
- JackFr 4y agoThere is a fundamental difference between private and public sector unions. "All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt (the guy who created the NLRB and was responsible for modern labor law in the US.) https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/letter-the-resolution-federation-federal-employees-against-strikes-federal-service https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/letter-the-resolut...
- metabagel 4y agoAs the head of the government, he had a great interest in not having unions in government service.
- ak217 4y agoIf a private employee union strikes and makes unreasonable demands, the employer eventually goes out of business. If a public employee union does the same, the government can't go out of business. So what that means is, as long as the union is granted monopoly on its kind of labor supply, they are holding the taxpayers and their infrastructure hostage. Public employee unions should not be allowed to strike without giving up their monopoly on labor. And we would do well to not entitle private employee unions to mandatory membership and rigid seniority rules (I know from personal experience that these rules make them incredibly corrupt).
- JackFr 4y agoPolice unions improve the lives of police officers but do little to improve policing. Teachers' unions improve the lives of teachers but have little effect on student outcomes. It's not obvious to me that a powerful air traffic controllers' union would do anything to improve safety. In fact if other public sector unions are informative, the result of a strong ATC union would be to protect and insulate poor performers.
- metabagel 4y agoThe workers were asking for better working conditions and equipment. Both of those impact their ability to do their job.
- ak217 4y agoAir traffic controllers do have a union. PATCO, the previous union that was "busted", was a public employee union that chose to hold critical public infrastructure hostage, which is unacceptable. Any union that does that should expect to be stripped of its monopoly on that kind of labor.
- titusjohnson 4y agoNo, they did not. Reagan very much wanted to spread that lie, but no infrastructure was held hostage. The laborers who held the skills needed to run that infrastructure declined to work when their compensation negotiations were declined. Reagan's actions have had a profoundly disturbing effect on the American middle class that is still being felt today.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y agoHad they all quit that would have been fine - nobody can force you to work. But they chose to not work and keep their jobs. > The laborers who held the skills needed So did many other people. They conspired to break the law by arranging to violate their employment contracts in a group so as to cause undue difficulty to their employer and they held public infrastructure hostage to prevent anyone else operating it. > Reagan's actions have had a profoundly disturbing effect on the American middle class The death of unions is a lot broader of an issue than RR killing the ATCU, and generally much deserved. Unions exist to save lives where the law isn't capable but for every plausibly relevant situation like air-traffic control or deep mining there are a hundred overreaches like trying to unionize Amazon warehouses. As society and work got safer in general it became less important to have such an option as the right to blockade someone's property and dictate who they can hire.
- rtkwe 4y agoA union that can't strike is a shared suggestion box at best. The ultimate power of a union boils down to the ability to deny labor to businesses and support it's members through that period in order to bargain.
- rlpb 4y ago> It's not uncommon for a tower controller to allow a plane to takeoff while another is approaching the runway. Only in the US is it permitted for the controller to clear an aircraft to land while another is using the runway. The rest of of the world does not allow "anticipated clearance". (Apart from a "land after" clearance where the landing aircraft must accept responsibility for separation.) Edited to add: how it works everywhere else in the world: the controller is not permitted to clear an aircraft to land unless and until the previous one is confirmed clear. That's why the term is "cleared".
- cm2187 4y agoBut what about the Southwest crew? The article says they waited a full minute between being cleared for take off and starting to roll. Surely they wouldn't assume the runway is the right place to hang around in a busy airport, planes typically take off straight away. If they do that it will eat into any safety margin.
- sfeng 4y agoIt's very likely the Southwest pilots were completing a checklist, programming their flight computer, or some other minor pre-takeoff activity before being ready to takeoff. A minute just isn't all that much of a delay. If the controller needed it to happen immediately, they should have first asked if the plane was ready, and then should have issued a takeoff clearance with 'without delay' or 'immediate' in it. Only then would be the Southwest pilots job to refuse the clearance if they couldn't comply immediately. I am unaware if there is a formal definition of how long a controller should expect a flight to take before following a non-urgent instruction, but 60 seconds doesn't seem wild to me. Now you could say that the Southwest pilots should have heard 'traffic 3 miles out', and understood that things need to move quickly. But as a pilot, I can say we don't have the traffic picture controllers have, particularly in bad weather. The general understanding is if we can't see other aircraft, we manage our plane, and its ATC who can get a picture of how fast the other aircraft are moving and what is safe from a separation perspective.
- blitzar 4y agoAs a passenger that flys almost exclusively long haul from very busy airports, it is rare that my plane will come to rest on the runway, generally accelerating in the turn onto the runway and taking off.
- sfeng 4y agoDid they come to rest on the runway, or did they wait a minute at the side of the runway and then proceed to takeoff? I don't think you would notice the difference as a passenger, unless you were listening in on the ATC transmissions.
- bambax 4y agoThe linked article (more interesting than this one IMHO) asks > Why were they arriving and departing on the same runway when parallels were available? and it's a good question! If there's more than one runway available, and bad visibility, why make two planes use the same runway so close to one another?? https://vannevar.blogspot.com/2023/02/austin-fedexdal-disaster-jfk-incursion.html https://vannevar.blogspot.com/2023/02/austin-fedexdal-disast...
- jameshart 4y agoUnless the terminal is between the runways, using parallel runways will still require clearing planes to cross runways. The conflict risks are different, but they don’t go away. Intuitively feels like the safest way to operate would be landing planes on the farthest runway, with takeoffs on the near one, because it would only require clearing just-landed aircraft to cross the takeoff runway and you have more discretion to time departures than arrivals.
- throwaway290 4y agoPerhaps they had not much traffic that day and wanted to keep one runway busier to save on maintenance or something.
- rationalist 4y ago> I feel for these tower controllers I would feel for this tower controller if there wasn't a bunch of comments in r/ATC saying how this particular controller has transferred between facilities because he keeps messing up and makes workplace complaints instead of owning up to his mistakes. Edit to add source: > a controller who, according to everyone who has worked with him from the last facility where he washed out and now AUS, say has no business being a controller and they can't fire him because he files EEO complaints habitually. https://old.reddit.com/r/ATC/comments/10uub5x/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ATC/comments/10uub5x/ More discussion: https://old.reddit.com/r/ATC/comments/10u0zvl/disaster_averted_at_austin_airport_after_fedex/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ATC/comments/10u0zvl/disaster_avert...
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- JustSomeNobody 4y agoQuestion, when FedEx says "Southwest Abort!" and then the controller tells them to turn right and Southwest says "negative" is that because they didn't have enough runway to do either?
- altgeek 4y agoMy understanding is that Southwest was already at or had exceeded V1 speed. Explanation of V1 -> https://www.flyingmag.com/everything-about-v-speeds-explained/ https://www.flyingmag.com/everything-about-v-speeds-explaine...