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> Diversity officials promote the hiring of ethnic minorities and women I'm genuinely curious if ethnic minorities and women are underrepresented among univers

> Diversity officials promote the hiring of ethnic minorities and women I'm genuinely curious if ethnic minorities and women are underrepresented among university faculty/staff. I would have guessed "no", but this statement implies otherwise.

mapierce2 4y ago
Yeah, they are. Very much among faculty of math/physics/engineering departments. But the reason is that much of the white male faculty were hired decades ago, when white men still dominated academia. Change is slow.
- amateuring 4y ago
  any proof for your assertions?
  - mapierce2 4y ago
    Personal observation
  - nextos 4y ago
    Lots of Dutch universities only hire women now, for instance. They lost a case in court but they still do this covertly [1]. In other places, it's not official but de facto there's a huge bias. [1] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/eindhoven-university-loses-sex-discrimination-case-over-women-only-job-ads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/eindhoven-university-l...
- twoifbyseat 4y ago
  > Very much among faculty of math/physics/engineering departments. Are we sure women and minorities aren't overrepresented in other departments enough to offset this...?
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    There is no "over-representation" of protected categories, only of oppressor categories. A standing joke about the Swedish equivalent of the D.I.E. drive - here it is called "Jämställdhetsmyndigheten" [1] (literally "The Equality Authority") - is that "100% equality is achieved when all departments have 100% women". They are totally blind to the fact that e.g. veterinary sciences and social "sciences" are ~95% women while being laser-focused on some areas where women are (still?) in the minority. This attitude gives lie to their claim of striving for equality and shows it to be nothing more than an ideologically driven activist organisation. [1] https://jamstalldhetsmyndigheten.se/ https://jamstalldhetsmyndigheten.se/
    - bitwize 4y ago
      > A standing joke about the Swedish equivalent of the D.I.E. drive - here it is called "Jämställdhetsmyndigheten" [1] (literally "The Equality Authority") - is that "100% equality is achieved when all departments have 100% women". Ruth Bader Ginsburg was once asked how many female justices sitting on the Supreme Court would be enough. Her answer was nine. (N.b. the U.S. Supreme Court traditionally has nine justices.) It's not really a joke. In any instant, equal proportions of men and women would represent equality (by sex). But taking the long view, 100% of the positions in those fields were held by men, so 100% would have to be held by women for a while in order to redress the historical injustice. This is "equity", a step beyond mere equality, and it's the E in DEI/JEDI.
      - ldododpdbd 4y ago
        no, what you've described is just replacing one tyranny with another. There is no justice or anything else positive in that
      - Macha 4y ago
        > It's not really a joke. In any instant, equal proportions of men and women would represent equality (by sex). But taking the long view, 100% of the positions in those fields were held by men, so 100% would have to be held by women for a while in order to redress the historical injustice. This is "equity", a step beyond mere equality, and it's the E in DEI/JEDI. I think this statement is going past equity straight into reparations. Equality: Men and Women should have equal criteria for getting the job. Equity: Women should have an easier time to counter an unbalanced gender representation This statement: Women should have an easier time because men in the past had an easier time, even if the pendulum shifts.
crackercrews 4y ago
A 2015 study shows women have a 2-1 advantage in hiring for professor slots. [1] This is probably a recent phenomenon, but it shows the trend. 1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/04/14/study-suggests-stem-faculty-hiring-favors-women-over-men https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/04/14/study-suggest...
hyperbovine 4y ago
Among new hires, typically not. The gender balance is close to 50/50, and hiring committees bend over backwards to find qualified URM candidates. The key word being "qualified". As a fraction of the overall department, yes, because anybody who hired in before ca. 2000 is basically a white or Asian male with almost no exceptions. So the demographics on paper still look pretty skewed, but it gets better with each passing year.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  How does less white or asian men constitute "better?"
  - gallopingcomp 4y ago
    More demographic proportionality?
    - fche 4y ago
      that's not 'better'
  - hyperbovine 4y ago
    Better as in a place I’d rather work.
nonethewiser 4y ago
>I'm genuinely curious if ethnic minorities and women are underrepresented among university faculty/staff. I would have guessed "no", but this statement implies otherwise. Why would that matter? Did you think the goal was "equal" (what does that eve mean?) representation? The goal is more of some people and less of others.

mapierce2 4y ago

Yeah, they are. Very much among faculty of math/physics/engineering departments. But the reason is that much of the white male faculty were hired decades ago, when white men still dominated academia. Change is slow.

amateuring 4y ago
any proof for your assertions?
- mapierce2 4y ago
  Personal observation
- nextos 4y ago
  Lots of Dutch universities only hire women now, for instance. They lost a case in court but they still do this covertly [1]. In other places, it's not official but de facto there's a huge bias. [1] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/eindhoven-university-loses-sex-discrimination-case-over-women-only-job-ads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/eindhoven-university-l...
twoifbyseat 4y ago
> Very much among faculty of math/physics/engineering departments. Are we sure women and minorities aren't overrepresented in other departments enough to offset this...?
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  There is no "over-representation" of protected categories, only of oppressor categories. A standing joke about the Swedish equivalent of the D.I.E. drive - here it is called "Jämställdhetsmyndigheten" [1] (literally "The Equality Authority") - is that "100% equality is achieved when all departments have 100% women". They are totally blind to the fact that e.g. veterinary sciences and social "sciences" are ~95% women while being laser-focused on some areas where women are (still?) in the minority. This attitude gives lie to their claim of striving for equality and shows it to be nothing more than an ideologically driven activist organisation. [1] https://jamstalldhetsmyndigheten.se/ https://jamstalldhetsmyndigheten.se/
  - bitwize 4y ago
    > A standing joke about the Swedish equivalent of the D.I.E. drive - here it is called "Jämställdhetsmyndigheten" [1] (literally "The Equality Authority") - is that "100% equality is achieved when all departments have 100% women". Ruth Bader Ginsburg was once asked how many female justices sitting on the Supreme Court would be enough. Her answer was nine. (N.b. the U.S. Supreme Court traditionally has nine justices.) It's not really a joke. In any instant, equal proportions of men and women would represent equality (by sex). But taking the long view, 100% of the positions in those fields were held by men, so 100% would have to be held by women for a while in order to redress the historical injustice. This is "equity", a step beyond mere equality, and it's the E in DEI/JEDI.
    - ldododpdbd 4y ago
      no, what you've described is just replacing one tyranny with another. There is no justice or anything else positive in that
    - Macha 4y ago
      > It's not really a joke. In any instant, equal proportions of men and women would represent equality (by sex). But taking the long view, 100% of the positions in those fields were held by men, so 100% would have to be held by women for a while in order to redress the historical injustice. This is "equity", a step beyond mere equality, and it's the E in DEI/JEDI. I think this statement is going past equity straight into reparations. Equality: Men and Women should have equal criteria for getting the job. Equity: Women should have an easier time to counter an unbalanced gender representation This statement: Women should have an easier time because men in the past had an easier time, even if the pendulum shifts.

crackercrews 4y ago

A 2015 study shows women have a 2-1 advantage in hiring for professor slots. [1] This is probably a recent phenomenon, but it shows the trend. 1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/04/14/study-suggests-stem-faculty-hiring-favors-women-over-men https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/04/14/study-suggest...

hyperbovine 4y ago

Among new hires, typically not. The gender balance is close to 50/50, and hiring committees bend over backwards to find qualified URM candidates. The key word being "qualified". As a fraction of the overall department, yes, because anybody who hired in before ca. 2000 is basically a white or Asian male with almost no exceptions. So the demographics on paper still look pretty skewed, but it gets better with each passing year.

nonethewiser 4y ago
How does less white or asian men constitute "better?"
- gallopingcomp 4y ago
  More demographic proportionality?
  - fche 4y ago
    that's not 'better'
- hyperbovine 4y ago
  Better as in a place I’d rather work.

nonethewiser 4y ago

>I'm genuinely curious if ethnic minorities and women are underrepresented among university faculty/staff. I would have guessed "no", but this statement implies otherwise. Why would that matter? Did you think the goal was "equal" (what does that eve mean?) representation? The goal is more of some people and less of others.