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I feel this way about TypeScript. That said, I see its value. We use it at my company. TypeScript is open-source but created and (I think) pseudo-owned by Mi
by autodev1 4y ago
I feel this way about TypeScript.
That said, I see its value. We use it at my company.
TypeScript is open-source but created and (I think) pseudo-owned by Microsoft, which has had terrible ethics over the years, including the 3 E's [1]
[1]
""Embrace, extend, and extinguish" (EEE),[1] also known as "embrace, extend, and exterminate",[2] is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found[3] that was used internally by Microsoft[4] to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences in order to strongly disadvantage its competitors."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
- lucasmullens 4y agoTypeScript is the least concerning one. If Microsoft somehow does something so outrageous that you can't stomach using TypeScript anymore, just compile it to JS permanently and call it a day.
- cosmotic 4y agoThese Microsoft examples are 20 years old. The company has changed leadership to a team that embraces open source years ago and I think they've done a pretty good job demonstrating this embrace. They have adopted open source Java, they further open sourced .NET, they've embraced Linux containers in Azure and WSL on windows, etc. Might be about time to reconsider this perspective of 'hate Microsoft'. Full disclosure: I work at Microsoft and these things I listed are a big part of why I moved there this past year.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago> changed leadership to a team that embraces open source years ago Before or after they were shaking down Android OEMs over FAT? Microsoft didn't change, they're just operating in a market where they can't get away with as much.
- jefftk 4y ago> Before or after they were shaking down Android OEMs over FAT? Looks like that was 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table#Challenges_and_lawsuits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table#Challeng... Nadella started in 2014.
- mixmastamyk 4y agoWhat about forcing Windows upgrades? What about endemic telemetry with no/constant-shifting off switches? What about dark patterns to all but force folks to create a online account? The first big tech co to jump in bed with the NSA? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31727293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31727293 The truth is the culture at MS hasn't changed much even as the world around it has.
- jefftk 4y agoNone of that is about their relationship to open source. There are still lots of reasons to dislike Microsoft, but their interaction with open source has dramatically improved in the last 10-20 years.
- mixmastamyk 4y agoTo clarify my point, is that if we know where the priorities of MS lie... and as demonstrated we know from experience that the needs of MS come first. Then extrapolating to their open source telemetry is a no-brainer.
- WorldMaker 4y agoAfter. That was also closer to a decade ago now than not. (It was settled in October 2015. Microsoft released an Open Patent Agreement with Android manufacturers a few years after that and dropped licensing fees at that time.)
- vfclists 4y agoHow about the part where certain plugins and extensions which work with Azure and some other Microsoft assets are not permitted in the forks of VSCode?
- turtlebits 4y agoI'm not sure I believe this. IME, the developer experience of .NET on Linux and Mac platforms is definitely subpar compared to Windows. I've tried to get started on F# several times and have always run into bugs and incomplete/inadequate documentation.
- guhidalg 4y agoF# will always be a niche language compared to C#. The VSCode extension for F# is bad, while the C# extension for VSCode is just as good as Visual Studio for C#. I'm not apologizing for the .NET team, but if you want to be productive with F# then you really should stick to Visual Studio on Windows.
- WorldMaker 4y agoF# has been working on much better language servers for VS Code (building on top of the good parts of C#'s work and the larger Roslyn compiler infrastructure ecosystem), but also F# is much more a "community" project than much of the rest of .NET and a lot of it is "at the pace of open source" rather than "at the pace of corporate initiatives", for both good and bad.
- acedTrex 4y agoI exclusively do dotnet on macos and I consider the experience to be mostly superior
- nickcox 4y agoHave you tried JetBrains Rider? I've found it pretty great on Mac and Linux.
- hutzlibu 4y ago"they've embraced Linux containers in Azure and WSL on windows" I am open to the possibility, that Microsoft changed, but this example is a classic "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactic by my understanding. Linux is strong with developers and certain tech, but by incorporating Linux, Microsoft makes devs have many good sides of linux, but with all the nice proprietary windows extensions. So they stay on windows. And that means less devs switching fully to linux to struggle with drivers and co. meaning less solutions there, so even more devs stay on windows and just use the Linux goodies. Effect extingushing remaining linux users on the desktop. But of course, they offset that very effectivly, by making me fight their system to not show me advertisement, track me or update at a very inconvinient time for example. Which is why I still love linux, aside from bugs, it does exactly what I want and when I want. I am in control. With windows I feel like I am renting something, where the contract and services can (and sometimes will) change any moment.
- cosmotic 4y agoDo you know any linux users that have switched from linux desktop to Windows because of WSL? I think it's just leading to Windows devs embracing Linux.
- hutzlibu 4y agoI know it keeps me more on windows, when I do not have to switch to the linux partition to do something particular and I see new devs not making the switch to linux at all, when they can get the job done on windows.
- pjmlp 4y agoNo, but I know quite a few that used to buy Mac laptops and now buy Windows ones. That is the target market, developers that want a POSIX CLI experience and don't care about GNU/Linux to start with.
- scarface74 4y ago> And that means less devs switching fully to linux to struggle with drivers and co. meaning less solutions there, so even more devs stay on windows and just use the Linux goodies. Isn’t the fact that Linux is still more of a headache an argument for using a product from a company that has a profit motive to provide a good user experience?
- JonChesterfield 4y agoMicrosoft is certainly embracing open source. It looks like Mono is still with us after open sourcing .NET, though it's now sponsored by Microsoft. They bought GitHub and kept it running. Are they still doing the extend with useful features not found elsewhere part? I don't follow their stack closely enough to know.
- User23 4y agoVisual Studio Code's Free version is crippled by, among other things, not being able to use certain language servers.
- michaelmrose 4y agoWhen Microsoft committed a whole host of criminal acts including funding a criminal pump and dump scheme targeting competitors with fraudulent lawsuits Satya Nadella had already been among MS leadership for years. If you were part of the MS leadership team in the 1990s and 2000s you were at least tacitly OK with profiting from crime. The only difference between then and now is deciding that open source can profitably be used and can't realistically be crushed. It's like the mob boss deciding there is money to be made working together so he stops trying to have you whacked. It's certainly a better position to be in but not one that engenders trust nor should it.
- Lerc 4y agoWhen I describe Haxe to people, the inevitable question is 'Why not Typescript?' This article is pretty much expresses the answer I give.