15 ms·

Amazon rescinding the offer while I am on the notice period

290 points by YuryVladkov 4y ago

A few days ago, just before the Christmas, Amazon HR called me to inform that my offer is rescinded. The start date was Jan 2, 2023. As a gift, they will pay me a months salary. I already resigned from my current post after obtaining the work visa for the new location on November 30th. I asked their affirmation before resigning. Right now, I cannot relocate and my current visa became void since I resigned. I also cancelled my rent agreement. In a month, I will be on streets, without a job and visa. In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust. Guess I did wrong. Are all places like this? Ps: sorry, I forgot to add. the new location was Canada. My current location is in EU. Ps2: some background about me: Amazon offer was for Sde2. I have 5 yoe. I have worked in several projects spanning from embedded software for airplanes to scalable cloud based data heavy backend applications. Java/C++98 were the primary stack. I had turned down an offer from Meta to join Amazon. I think my system design and general ds&a ability is okay. I am a good team player and perform well in friendly environment.

tosc 4y ago
Man that is so horrible. Not all places are like that. Unfortunately it tends to be smaller places that are more trustworthy. I suggest that at very least you may need a good immigration attorney.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  "Smaller places are more trustworthy" is not true at all. They have their own set of issues.
  - passwordoops 4y ago
    100%. Family companies are the worst in my first- and second-hand experience. Blood runs thicker than water, and outsiders are often reminded of that fact come promotion/major decision time
  - pieix 4y ago
    I'd phrase it this way: at a smaller company, you are much more likely to be treated as a human, by a human, versus being treated as a unit by a system at a bigger company.
- hcks 4y ago
  But all places are like that in fact. The best you can hope for are that they respect the law. If you didn’t experience it yourself it’s solely due to a mix of luck, never being at places that struggled and being hard to replace, that’s it.
  - NeverFade 4y ago
    > The best you can hope for are that they respect the law Offer letters never provided much of a legal protection. We just treated them as if they did. Amazon et al wouldn't rescind them by their thousands this year if that created a strong legal case against them.
kidgorgeous 4y ago
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- hikingsimulator 4y ago
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  - hinkley 4y ago
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- dang 4y ago
  Would you please stop posting like this? You've done it repeatedly and we ban such accounts. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
keneda7 4y ago
In my experience if the company is amazons size yes it is like that. Smaller family run companies treat their employees/prospective employees much better in my experience. It is not always the case but I from my direct experience it has been. I am so sorry this has happened to you.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  I somewhat agree, but I have had bad experiences at micro companies as well (companies under 75 employees) My experience the sweet spot is privately held corporations above 200 employees below 1000-2000 employees. Privately held is a key part, all publicly traded companies suck IMO
  - jordanbeiber 4y ago
    Can confirm. I have spent some time trying all kinds, and below 2k, not public and preferably founder and majority shareholder as CEO is just perfect. You have to focus on actual value, and empire-building is kept to a minimum.
    - YuryVladkov 4y ago
      I could not find any tech company like this. all these silicon valley startups just focus on IPO and getting a huge return from stock market.
  - dangoor 4y ago
    I think a lot of it depends on management, their views, and what they prioritize. I, too, have had really good experiences at orgs between 150 and 850 employees, but that may partly be due to not having been there during "belt tightening" times. I've also had some good experiences at bigger companies, but the issues tend to be different.
asdev 4y ago
Sadly, it should say that employment is at-will on both sides(employer and employee). Everyone is on eggshells in this job market. Hope you find something else.
citia19 4y ago
Hi OP, could you please share which org in amazon were you planning to join? Cuz I was told by my manager that 2 ppl from EU will join our team in Vancouver shortly… and we are a new team…
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  I think there are dozens of people like me.
  - citia19 4y ago
    I’m really sorry op, I hope you could find a job in Canada soon
Ocha 4y ago
I don’t understand why would someone trust Amazon or think to work there at all. Do people just don’t believe that it’s not a good company to work at?
hcks 4y ago
These kind of stories really puts in perspective the whole “woah we software engineers at FAANG are so privileged”.
hikingsimulator 4y ago
Sadly, that's the US for you. The corporate world can be a horror show and sympathetic HR is an oxymoron. I hope you can get yourself out of this bind. Still try to enjoy your Christmas if possible.
- deleted 4y ago
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- programmarchy 4y ago
  > Sadly, that's the US for you. Eat crow, mate.
  - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
    Um what? The US is terrible in how employees are treated
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Um What? have you actually worked in the US? I find alot of people in other nations often complain about the lack of US regulations with out understanding that most employers go far beyond what regulations require them. I for one do not want the Federal Government controlling my employment, I dont want the federal government doing anything other than national defense. So no I do not want EU employment laws here in the US.
      - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
        I work in the US
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Showing once again that the Anti-American bias is in full swing this story has nothing to do with the US at all, and the US immigration system is not all that much different than other nations, it is just in the news more because the load on the US system is 100x more than other nations
shyn3 4y ago
Wow. Sorry man. Head high. You got this! We need a list of companies who act this way and boycott their products.
- passwordoops 4y ago
  It's probably easier to compile a list of companies who don't act this way at this moment
- walkhour 4y ago
  Products produced by enslaved children are not boycotted, don't get your hopes too high.
  - shyn3 4y ago
    This is so true.
abc_lisper 4y ago
I’m very sorry about this. You should look for another job. But make stink about this - write a letter to local congressman, senators and newspapers. It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this. A months pay is a spit in the face- they could have let you known upfront; it’s not like recession happened last night. You shouldn’t suffer for their mistake.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  I think U.S. expats (still citizens but living abroad) have largely found that their U.S. representatives aren't interested in their problems. I've heard this in relation to banking (FATCA), and perhaps also regarding non-reciprocity of driving licenses. So I'm guessing they'd be even less interested in the plight of a non-voter.
- danaris 4y ago
  > It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this. I mean, this seems to be self-contradictory. "We don't want to have rules around hiring and firing! We just want companies to be good!" If there are no rules against particular abuses of labor, large, unethical companies will commit those abuses, especially if it makes things more convenient for them or someone can argue that it saves 0.03¢. It should not be considered to be OK to hire and fire at will.
tehlike 4y ago
What country is this? US? Is it 30 days or 60 days?
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Its in EU. 60 days to be exact, but accounting the new hear headcount calculations etc and all interview stages, it would be so hard for me
mmoustafa 4y ago
Very sorry to hear. The good news is there’s plenty of options to secure your immigration status while figuring out next steps. USCIS released (somewhat relaxed) guidance on the current environment for non-citizen workers. You can find a list here https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506?s=20&t=W0xevZYq3KxVpL9Sf8gVjQ https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506... In summary, all the “gray zone” escape hatches like the 2 month grace period or the B-2 status change are considered “in the clear” per this guidance.
- zszugyi 4y ago
  OP's offer was in Canada and is currently in the EU, I don't think any of the USCIS policies apply to them.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    Sorry it is my bad that I was not being clear and forgot to add the location. Thanks for all the helps tho.
- ulfw 4y ago
  Completely irrelevant to him going to Canada. Not everyone is going to the US.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    It is my bad to add that it is about Canada. I am sorry.
tyingq 4y ago
Rescinding an offer that's tied to a visa is just extra shitty, sorry this happened to you. Surely they know the consequences that you'll suffer. I wonder if the Amazon leadership chain that collectively decided to do this has any remorse. Edit: Feels like something that governments should tie to individual company's ability to use the visa program. Rescind a visa-tied offer (for no-fault-of-applicant reason), and we yank your right to use the program.
- np- 4y ago
  No, you are purely a number to them, it is very unlikely anyone cares or even is mildly interested in the full scope of the damage they’re causing. I have worked with companies like this, if you try to push them from the “guilt” angle they usually double down about how this is collectively the best solution (carefully omitting that what they mean is it’s the best solution for their personal ambitions and wallets)
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  So what's the better option? Laying off someone already employed instead? It's not extra shitty, it's just as shitty as any other situation. It sucks for the person involved but the alternatives are not better. At least someone that got their offer rescinded can sue for promissory estoppel.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Perhaps it's not a zero-sum game, and nobody needs to be immediately laid off.
    - iLoveOncall 4y ago
      Thousands have already been in November and more are planned in Q1. Rescinding offers is honestly awful but it's by far the best solution if they want to reduce head count.
  - powerbroker 4y ago
    That is something that works under U.S. law. I wonder if such a remedy is available if tried in a Canadian court. Any Canadian attorneys out there.
deleted 4y ago
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skullone 4y ago
Ah man. I'm sorry. But, you made it to Amazon, you will be wanted for another opportunity real quick I bet!
- rat9988 4y ago
  Not in the current market no.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    I am from a 3rd world country. I was kind of believing in the notion of “pursuit of happiness”. I studied hard worked hard to make it into a FAANG so that I can live a decent life in a developed country and support my family and parents. Now it appears that I have risked the livelihood of my family for my stupid ambitions.
    - patrec 4y ago
      Your ambitions are not stupid but perfectly sensible and laudable. Unless there is something you didn't tell us you just have been really unlucky. So although your current situation sucks and must be very stressful, try not to lose heart and keep a cool head even if it's very difficult. If there is a signed contract, you have some legal avenues open to you and there are probably also quite a few people here on HN who would like to help you if they can. Finally unless you already tried that, it's also possible that either your last employer or one of the places that you rejected would still be willing to take you on if you explain to them what happened. And even if lost your apartment, you might be able to afford staying in youth hostels or similar for a while whilst you sort out your next steps.
NeverFade 4y ago
I don't have much of an advice for you, OP, other than what you already knew: try to find a new job ASAP. You may have to leave the US for a while, and come back to interview on a visitor visa, until you can get a new job to sponsor your work visa, which I can only assume to be H-1B. The above is not a substitute for the advice of an immigration attorney, which you absolutely must consult. More generally, I wonder if post-2022, offer letters are going to matter at all. 2022 exposed the fact that their protections was always a sort of a "gentleman's agreement". Your case is a great example of that: your only recourse is suing Amazon, a near trillion dollar corporation. My understanding is that your legal case would be shaky. The offer letter never provided much of a legal protection, we just liked to assume it did, and operated as if it did - hence why the typical advice on tech forums for employees was never to rescind our acceptance of an offer letter. Because it was never level sound, we saw the sanctity of the offer letter violated en-mass in 2022. It was exposed as an empty promise.
satya71 4y ago
Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you find something new soon.
qaq 4y ago
"Are all places like this?" Well most of EU is not like this...
- marvin 4y ago
  Salaries are half though, so it's not all roses.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Not when you factor in the cost of living. Just house prices alone are drastically lower than in Silicon Valley.
    - qaq 4y ago
      Not all jobs in US are in SV, Also in tech hubs like Dublin the prices are getting there
      - hnlmorg 4y ago
        But the jobs outside of Silicon Valley will generally pay less too (unless you happen to be in another tech hub, but expect the cost of living to be greater there too). So you’re literally making the same point :)
        qaq 4y ago
        While they pay less (not always) they pay better than EU one's plus taxes are lower in US.
        hnlmorg 4y ago
        It’s not a competition. ;) Jokes aside, I think your details are a little biased. Plenty of European tech hubs pay competitive salaries. And I know many Americans view tax as a net loss but Europeans do actually get a bunch of services for free because of taxes. Stuff Americans have to worry about on top of their daily daily lives. It’s not really possible to compare two counties as a like for like in the way yourself and the GP were attempting to. And my point wasn’t to say Europe is better or worse than America. Just that plenty of people in European tech hubs have a very decent standard of living too. You don’t have to work in America to earn a decent wage.
chevman 4y ago
I know a few folks relatively high up in Amazon HR/TA/People Ops type roles and the scale at which they operate recruiting is nuts. Mainly driven by the insane need for people in the ops/fulfillment/delivery areas, but corp roles are also similar. They typically make more offers than roles they have available, as they have fairly good analytics around what % of offers will not be filled post acceptance (ie someone simply never shows up for day 1 of work). Now, fast forward to today, and as you've heard in the press, and from Amazon directly, they are slowing hiring and may even do cuts in the new year. I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts. Still sucks and is a shitty situation.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  While I understand this mentally it is still unethical to offer multiple people the job where by they start taking life changing steps where the employer knows full well they have extended multiple offers simply because "maybe one of them will not show up" I have experience a few times new employee's not showing up on day 1. I would NEVER even consider extended multiple offers to people just to ensure one of them shows up. That is more than just "shitty" as you say.
  - lkschubert8 4y ago
    It's unethical because of the downside asymmetry of the two scenarios. In one someone has made significant life changes and left guaranteed income. On the opposite side a business entity won't be able to best optimize profits.
  - NeverFade 4y ago
    If you can prove that the offer letter was issued in bad faith, for example the employer issued 2 offer letters for 1 position (hence one of the letters was issued for a job that doesn't exist) then I suspect you may have a legal case. 2022 exposed the fact that in the US, with its at-will employer, offer letters never offered much of a protection if they were offered in good faith, and then rescinded.
chrisgd 4y ago
Go scorched earth. Email Bezos, Jaffy, etc. tell them the situation and ask for additional compensation.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  I don't think that's going to accomplish more than this HN post on Christmas, honestly Jassy knows how easy it is for engineers who passed the Amazon bar to find new jobs. He's going to think "Welcome to The Jungle, kid" and move on If you ask me. OP dodged a bullet here. Amazon has turned into a toxic swamp
  - NeverFade 4y ago
    You're writing this as if Bezos / Jaffy or anyone at their level is even going to read some random person's angry email.
    - chrisgd 4y ago
      Bezos read my email as a prime member. Think the chances of this getting you blackballed from work is low and the upside is there. Nothing left to lose in my opinion
    - YuryVladkov 4y ago
      The funny thing is one of their LPs is this: Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun. Hey Amazon, I am having no fun!
    - vertis 4y ago
      I've gotten a reply from Bezos (or more likely an EA) before, it happens. Sidenote: EAs are just as good. Having been on the end of an EA to a CEO telling me to fix something I can tell you it's not a place you want to be. They can, in a limited way, invoke CEO power. It's never a sure thing but it doesn't hurt to try either. Also Werner Vogels once popped into a hacker news thread I posted about my AWS account having leaked keys and a bill run up by a "hacker" (this was before it was common)[0][1]. [0]: https://vertis.io/2013/12/16/unauthorised-litecoin-mining/ https://vertis.io/2013/12/16/unauthorised-litecoin-mining/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6911908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6911908
schmidp 4y ago
We are in the EU and are looking for Java/Kotlin Devs in case you want to send over your CV (openresearch.com).
behringer 4y ago
Sorry. Amazon is not a place anybody should work for.
sjoerger 4y ago
November 31st doesn’t exist.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Sorry, made a typo.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jimlongton 4y ago
Is your current post already filled? I'm in the EU and filling positions left by people resigning has taken months. Talk to your old manager and HR. They might be more desperate than they appear.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Staying at a job that you resigned from is not a good idea, unless it’s very short term. For many reasons.
  - vertis 4y ago
    No that's just not true. I left a company years ago on good terms to join a (semi established) startup. 9 months later it turned out to be a real shitshow. I talked to one of the senior managers at my former company and they gave me a really great job offer. More senior than previous and with a pay rise above the bump I'd gotten going to the startup. Stayed with that company for another 4 years (7.5 in total). It'll vary based on a lot of factors. Very few employers would begrudge someone going for a huge pay rise FAANG opportunity, and the fact that they got the role means they're good material. As always it's going to depend on a huge number of factors. It doesn't have to be negative though.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      Your story is different. You left for a significant time then returned. That’s not what OP is talking about.
      - vertis 4y ago
        One of the great things about humans is the ability to take one experience and abstract it to gain knowledge about others. In this case I was implying (as was my sibling comment) that resigning isn't necessarily impossible to undo. Highly depends on their behaviour and value to the company and colleagues. If they're valuable and well liked it could be an option.
  - 4y ago
GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
Sue them for damages
spac 4y ago
With the visibility of this post I would make sure to link or highlight your skills so others can help. Best of luck, I'm sorry this happened to you. It sucks.
jpiasetz 4y ago
I saw this on Reddit yesterday so hopefully you were the op there as well. The advice there was all talk to a lawyer which you should do. Either: 1) they are incorrect following the law or 2) they are correctly following the law And nobody can tell with 100% certainty either without going to court because law isn’t deterministic. If it is 1 Amazon could be either: a) incompetently not considering your situation individually and will roll over when it gets escalated b) maliciously offer low and intending to fight it Both Canada and EU have strong labour laws so probably worth fighting it even if you lose the 1 month
ta988 4y ago
Really sorry to hear that. This is a reminder that you should never work for Amazon if you need a visa. Sadly your story is not the first one I heard. The most recent, a friend of mine was promised they would support her visa application after one year working there (which is really simple and cheap for them) and now they say it is against their rules.
- deleted 4y ago
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- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  I'm curious if there will ever be an inflection point where Amazon's reputation is so bad that they just can't hire the workers they want, even with competitive total comp. My intuition is that there will always be enough people who are too desperate, or uninformed, to steer clear. I hope I'm wrong.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    I would 4x my TC and be an immigrant in Canada which has a very established permanent residency system. I knew about the PiP system, but I had no idea that they could rescind the offer like this. I have turned some other offers down to accept Amazon’s, and they left me like this
  - solardev 4y ago
    I wouldn't work for them if they offered me a million a year. Everything I've heard about them suggests they are unethical and have zero concern for their cattle. But I'm not in the OP'S situation.
arealaccount 4y ago
This happened to me a few years ago, although I did not have to worry about the visa part. My previous job was more than happy to take me back. It felt gross, but nonetheless I went back. Turned out to be a good bet for them as I remembered and felt indebted to them. It may work to try to contact your previous employer. In a purely rational context they should take you back and it’s a win for them.
gbear0 4y ago
Has anyone tried to add special clauses to their initial contract along the lines of: "If the offer is rescinded before the start date, the applicant will be awarded 3 months salary. If the applicant is fired within 3 months of the start date, the applicant will be awarded relocation fees to previous location." And you'd update that based on costs of moving, or possibly the state of the economy and your risk tolerance. If they don't agree to that, then they clearly aren't serious about hiring you, and you dodge a bullet. This would hopefully reduce cases where they hand out multiple offers for a single job, or at least compensate applicants due to a change from management.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Unless you are a special snowflake with a unique skillset, why would a company the size of Amazon ever veer from their standard contract?
  - gbear0 4y ago
    Why are they hiring people that need a visa and need to relocate across the world? The ask for compensation for getting dropped before the start date should usually be an easy one for a company to accept since that shouldn't be normal operating procedures. Otherwise, they're aware that they're explicitly screwing over people and aren't serious about hiring. Now we're back at my earlier claim, and you dodged a bullet. You don't need to be special, but you definitely shouldn't think of yourself as a cog in the machine. If you do think of yourself as a cog, or this is an offer you can't refuse, then you've already given up your bargaining power, and you are willing to accept this.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You are a cog in the machine with a company that has over a 1 and a half million employees. Andy Jassy is my skip x 7 manager and he doesn’t know me from Adam. I doubt my skip x 3 manager would know me if he ran into on the street. How much bargaining power do you think you really have? If any of us got hit by a bus, they would have an open req out before our body’s were in the ground and only be remembered when our name came up during a git blame.
scarface74 4y ago
Just a general rant: It didn’t become apparent to me how much this environment sucks for people here on H1B until I asked on HN why would anyone put up with the shit show that Twitter has become and they said a large contingent may be H1B holders. My general advice to always have a “go to hell fund” is null and void if no matter how much money you have in the bank, you only have a limited amount of time to get another job.
rmk 4y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. Are you a refugee? Why do you say you will be on the streets? I hope you can figure out a temporary work situation to keep you housed, clothed and fed while you figure out what's next. I hope you can conserve the money you will receive and use it wisely, considering it's going to be a substantial amount of money and can see you through the winter perhaps. It is very discouraging to be caught out in a bad market, and by an unscrupulous employer such as Amazon, but I hope you take some time to step back and enjoy Christmas. Companies often cut with no second thought, especially during recessions, but this is pretty capricious even by corporate standards. Best of luck.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  I am from a 3rd world country. Currently I am working in Europe with a work visa. When I become unemployed, my visa becomes void and I will be deported. I already told my landlord that I was gonna leave the house in early Jan. They found a new tenant. Now, I need to go back to my home country and find a house and a job there.
deleted 4y ago
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jmyeet 4y ago
This is the advice I'd give to anyone, particularly in this market: don't resign until you physically start your new job. Particularly when the new job is in a different country, even if your contract requires you to give a certain period of notice, it really doesn't matter. So in your case I would've started with Amazon in January and then resigned. A lot now depends on what country you are in, what visa you are on and what other visa you may qualify for. You may qualify for a temporary Schengen visa. That buys 90 days at least. The country you're in may cover cases like this. You should probably speak to an immigration lawyer in that country. There's not really anything you can do about Amazon Canada rescinding your offer. It sucks but don't waste energy on it. Just move on.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Maybe it's a higher bar to lay off a brand new employee than to rescind an offer letter. But I don't think that's a given. It still may be good advice in the current climate though.
deleted 4y ago
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vertis 4y ago
Hi YuryVladkov, This really sucks. There is lots of advice but one piece of advice worth mentioning is that you can freelance (e.g. Estonian or other EU company) and then you can use visa free days and live like a digital nomad. Depending on your origin country a lot of countries have visa free travel. In the EU you can stay indefinitely by going in and out of the schengen zone. Using Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Ireland and Cyprus as places to spend time. And then the rest of the 90 in 180 days inside Schengen. This might not work for you if you don't have visa free travel, but it's worth mentioning anyway. In the mean time you can sort things out and apply for other jobs. So long as you stay clear of the major world cities (e.g. Berlin, Munich, Paris) airbnb and equivalent can be quite affordable for monthly stays. For example Sofia is quite a nice city and has quite affordable accommodation and coworking. I'm happy to answer more questions if you want. My contact details are on my profile (prefer telegram).
- extasia 4y ago
  Note that Croatia is joining schengen in 2023.
hamilyon2 4y ago
Please send your resume to my email.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Sorry I could not see your email
  - hamilyon2 4y ago
    Sorry, my bad, I put it into description now
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
You need a wrongful dismissal lawyer in the Canadian province you would have been working in. Canada has had a number of successful "wrongful hiring" lawsuits where the prospective employer has had to pay up. Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation. A letter from a wrongful dismissal lawyer will likely open the window to a better deal without having to file a lawsuit as companies don't like to see their name dragged in the mud with this kind of lawsuit.
- benj111 4y ago
  >Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation I wouldn't be hopeful about this. Speaking from the UK, we have wrongful dismissal that's basically a breach of contract, so you're basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks, although I think it takes a week to kick in. You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things. However most British employment law protections stem from eu law. Wrongful dismissal is kind of a holdover at this point so it's possible Canadian law is now very different, despite being from the same root.
  - BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
    Canadian wrongful dismissal law is quite different. It's not so much the statutes as the precedents that have been developed in a number of court rulings. If you have followed the Business section of any Canadian newspaper, you would be well aware of employment law rulings in Canadian courts. I suspect Amazon HR has assumed that they can get away in Canada with what they do in the US. They may be about to be taught an expensive lesson.
  - squiffsquiff 4y ago
    > basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks That depends on the contract. 2 weeks might be typical for a US contract but it can certainly vary. > You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things. I'm sorry I don't know where you get this idea of 'the British way of doing things' I've lived here my whole life and I've never heard this. Regardless, it doesn't constitute an argument. Consequential loss is absolutely a thing.
patrec 4y ago
> As a gift, they will pay me a months salary. Have you got a signed contract? In which case them paying you is not a "gift" but something you are most likely legally entitled to, and you should find out how much they are required to pay you first of all. You can probably get a decent idea by a bit of googling, and if it looks like you are entitled to a good bit more than the one month they offered you, you should seek out an employment lawyer asap. If the law is on your side and you are lawyered up, hopefully it won't be necessary to sue them. > In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust. Never trust faceless magacorps, especially not ones with a long documented pattern of screwing over their employees (and everyone else) without a second thought and right when they are going through mass lay-offs. Working for bigtech can be a great idea compensation and career wise, but never lose sight of the fact that to them you are just a replaceable cog whatever the in-house brain-washing department will try to tell you. Also, try to understand how critical the team you are hired into is to the company's current revenue streams, especially if the economy looks like it does now. I would also suggest putting some contact details in your HN profile, maybe someone will reach out who can help (either with advice or, if you are really lucky and happen to have the right skills and tell people here about them, potentially even a visa-sponsorship; one difficulty is that you are on a short time frame and typically only larger companies will offer visa sponsorships unless you have some particular key skills). > Are all places like this? No, but you should be prepared to get screwed over at startups or small to medium companies as well. For faceless megacorps reading up on (ex-)employee experiences on forums like HN and glassdoor etc. is a good idea. For small companies being a good judge of character and talking to the CEO or similar as part of the interview helps.
deodar 4y ago
I am sorry to hear that Yury. The timing especially is unfortunate heading into the Christmas holidays. I suggest talking to an EU immigration lawyer at the earliest about your options to continue living in the EU while you look for new employment. You can do a quick phone consultation (in the US it costs about $75 for a 20 minute consultation with a lawyer, I hope something similar exists in your EU country). From my own experience, there is no substitute for talking to a lawyer because they can give clear and crisp answers about your options. Good luck and I hope you are able to overcome this hurdle.
bentlegen 4y ago
176 points, 100 comments in 1 hour … downvoted by HN mods and off the front page immediately. As a point of feedback, when mods get so obviously involved in suppressing content seemingly-valued by the community it would be nice to understand the motivation behind that.
- hodgesrm 4y ago
  How do you know it's downvoted by HN mods?
  - bentlegen 4y ago
    Do you have an alternative explanation? It was #2 when I first viewed this thread (with far less points and comments), and a few minutes later it was off the front page entirely. But this question is exactly why I would like illumination. The mods could respond to my post and explain.
    - YuryVladkov 4y ago
      I am also surprised about that. I hope that is not the case.
ishyfishyy 4y ago
Could you potentially explain your situation to Meta and see if they can get your offer back, even if it's for another team?
Ancalagon 4y ago
Y’all, stop accepting offers from Amazon. We’ve been shown time and time again they don’t care about their employees
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  True, I am paying for my mistakes with a huge cost
CommieBobDole 4y ago
I swear, if Amazon was kidnapping people off the street and grinding them up to use the slurry as machine coolant, there would be people in threads like this saying, "Well, they could use water, but it's 25% less efficient which would increase costs, and at their scale those costs would be larger than the value of the lives of the people they're grinding up, so I see where they're coming from."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
zht 4y ago
Did you have to repost this from blind?
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Do you know how many people are affected? The info session regarding with work visas had more than 300 people attending. And lets say I did. what is wrong to post this from blind
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
leetcodesucks 4y ago
[dead]
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
Yuri, After reading about your visa situation, a wrongful dismissal lawyer can claim for the extra expenses because of your visa situation including returning to home country, temporary accommodation, possibly being forced off employment market for an extended time until your visa situation is sorted out, extra travel etc. Wrongful dismissal law (precedents) requires you to make reasonable effort to mitigate damages;so keep up your job search. Remember that once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon.
- ekanes 4y ago
  > once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon If this is the case, I wonder if it implies that you can pursue an equivalent job IN CANADA, with Amazon paying for anything lost in the process...
BonoboIO 4y ago
This is just unethical of Amazon, but we are talking about Amazon. They don't care shit about people. Sorry, but it is true. I feel very sorry for you Yury.
SkyLemon 4y ago
Given this is in Canada, we have decent labor laws, not as good as the UK, but much better then the US. With that said, go talk to a lawyer, note free ones will alway tell you they can get more.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  In which way are labor laws better in Canada than in the US? especially for work visa holders?
faangiq 4y ago
Amazon Prime will rename to Amazon PIP in 2023.
thatguymike 4y ago
Reach back out to Meta. They're not offended that you turned down their offer, they understand that situations change, and they very well might still want to hire you.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  They laid off recently and I could not find any E4 job posting
birdymcbird 4y ago
i can’t offer a solution to your problem but here is another point of view. consider it a blessing for your long term mental health. companies like amazon will bring you to Canada or US on a work visa and literally pound you. the cut throat culture brings out most toxic behavior in individuals. your going to be in competition at amazon of people from different cultures. sounds great on paper but different cultures and backgrounds have taught people especially from developing world to naturally react and minimize their own risk exposure in a particular way. endless political battles at middle management levels and teammates throwing each other under bus or refusing to cooperate in case the “other” person gets credit. moving to a country on a work visa sponsored by amazon is not a good idea.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Will try to shift my mental mod like this, thanks
Relighted 4y ago
#damagecontrol. Check out the amzn offers in EU asap, you were hired and that's status @amzn as long as the recruiter has any kind of hart they will get you on the table of eu recruiters. Good luck. Thare the exact positions urls to them you have a strong belief you fit.
- ranman 4y ago
  The amazon recruiters are some of the most idiotic humans you'll ever meet. At least in NAMER. When I was hiring at AWS I would actively try to avoid the candidate talking to the recruiter too much because the recruiter would frequently say things that were entirely false.
obynio 4y ago
Happened to me as well, I got a visa and an offer to work in Japan. I resigned from my current company, send the leave notice for my apartment, started packing and was supposed to fly there a month later. Omicron appeared a few weeks later, Japan sealed their borders, canceled all pending visa. No exception. But Japanese nationals were still allowed to travel freely anywhere and get working visa for Europe (of course). Luckily my previous job accepted to cancel the resignation and I managed to keep my apartment since I had a very good relation with my landlord. But I still hold a nasty grunge to the Japanese government for that dick move. When I finally made it 18 months later, I got randomly interviewed at the airport and talked about this covid management shit show, the lack of reciprocity between JP and EU, their government's inability to take any sensible action in a whole year... Even the interviewer was embarrassed. Needless to say, the interview was never broadcasted. Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are wonderful people and there is a lot to love about them, their culture and their language. But they're governed by (very) old and incompetent politicians that rules the country like we're in 1980 and never cease to amaze me by their inaction and lack of innovation.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  feels just bad.. sigh. It is good that you could recover yourself. I am waiting for holiday season to end so that I can talk with my old company. They already sent me exit interview etc so I am skeptical if it can be reversible
fnbr 4y ago
Contact Meta, they might still want to hire you.
whinvik 4y ago
I think your best option right now is to ask your previous employer if they will have you back. What type of visa did you have. If you had a Blue Card, you are typically allowed 3 months to find another job. Maybe HN can help find you another one quickly.

290 points by YuryVladkov 4y ago

tosc 4y ago

Man that is so horrible. Not all places are like that. Unfortunately it tends to be smaller places that are more trustworthy. I suggest that at very least you may need a good immigration attorney.

NeverFade 4y ago
"Smaller places are more trustworthy" is not true at all. They have their own set of issues.
- passwordoops 4y ago
  100%. Family companies are the worst in my first- and second-hand experience. Blood runs thicker than water, and outsiders are often reminded of that fact come promotion/major decision time
- pieix 4y ago
  I'd phrase it this way: at a smaller company, you are much more likely to be treated as a human, by a human, versus being treated as a unit by a system at a bigger company.
hcks 4y ago
But all places are like that in fact. The best you can hope for are that they respect the law. If you didn’t experience it yourself it’s solely due to a mix of luck, never being at places that struggled and being hard to replace, that’s it.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  > The best you can hope for are that they respect the law Offer letters never provided much of a legal protection. We just treated them as if they did. Amazon et al wouldn't rescind them by their thousands this year if that created a strong legal case against them.

kidgorgeous 4y ago

[flagged]

hikingsimulator 4y ago
[flagged]
- hinkley 4y ago
  [flagged]
dang 4y ago
Would you please stop posting like this? You've done it repeatedly and we ban such accounts. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

keneda7 4y ago

In my experience if the company is amazons size yes it is like that. Smaller family run companies treat their employees/prospective employees much better in my experience. It is not always the case but I from my direct experience it has been. I am so sorry this has happened to you.

phpisthebest 4y ago
I somewhat agree, but I have had bad experiences at micro companies as well (companies under 75 employees) My experience the sweet spot is privately held corporations above 200 employees below 1000-2000 employees. Privately held is a key part, all publicly traded companies suck IMO
- jordanbeiber 4y ago
  Can confirm. I have spent some time trying all kinds, and below 2k, not public and preferably founder and majority shareholder as CEO is just perfect. You have to focus on actual value, and empire-building is kept to a minimum.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    I could not find any tech company like this. all these silicon valley startups just focus on IPO and getting a huge return from stock market.
- dangoor 4y ago
  I think a lot of it depends on management, their views, and what they prioritize. I, too, have had really good experiences at orgs between 150 and 850 employees, but that may partly be due to not having been there during "belt tightening" times. I've also had some good experiences at bigger companies, but the issues tend to be different.

asdev 4y ago

Sadly, it should say that employment is at-will on both sides(employer and employee). Everyone is on eggshells in this job market. Hope you find something else.

citia19 4y ago

Hi OP, could you please share which org in amazon were you planning to join? Cuz I was told by my manager that 2 ppl from EU will join our team in Vancouver shortly… and we are a new team…

YuryVladkov 4y ago
I think there are dozens of people like me.
- citia19 4y ago
  I’m really sorry op, I hope you could find a job in Canada soon

Ocha 4y ago

I don’t understand why would someone trust Amazon or think to work there at all. Do people just don’t believe that it’s not a good company to work at?

hcks 4y ago

These kind of stories really puts in perspective the whole “woah we software engineers at FAANG are so privileged”.

hikingsimulator 4y ago

Sadly, that's the US for you. The corporate world can be a horror show and sympathetic HR is an oxymoron. I hope you can get yourself out of this bind. Still try to enjoy your Christmas if possible.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
programmarchy 4y ago
> Sadly, that's the US for you. Eat crow, mate.
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  Um what? The US is terrible in how employees are treated
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Um What? have you actually worked in the US? I find alot of people in other nations often complain about the lack of US regulations with out understanding that most employers go far beyond what regulations require them. I for one do not want the Federal Government controlling my employment, I dont want the federal government doing anything other than national defense. So no I do not want EU employment laws here in the US.
    - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
      I work in the US
phpisthebest 4y ago
Showing once again that the Anti-American bias is in full swing this story has nothing to do with the US at all, and the US immigration system is not all that much different than other nations, it is just in the news more because the load on the US system is 100x more than other nations

shyn3 4y ago

Wow. Sorry man. Head high. You got this! We need a list of companies who act this way and boycott their products.

passwordoops 4y ago
It's probably easier to compile a list of companies who don't act this way at this moment
walkhour 4y ago
Products produced by enslaved children are not boycotted, don't get your hopes too high.
- shyn3 4y ago
  This is so true.

abc_lisper 4y ago

I’m very sorry about this. You should look for another job. But make stink about this - write a letter to local congressman, senators and newspapers. It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this. A months pay is a spit in the face- they could have let you known upfront; it’s not like recession happened last night. You shouldn’t suffer for their mistake.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
I think U.S. expats (still citizens but living abroad) have largely found that their U.S. representatives aren't interested in their problems. I've heard this in relation to banking (FATCA), and perhaps also regarding non-reciprocity of driving licenses. So I'm guessing they'd be even less interested in the plight of a non-voter.
danaris 4y ago
> It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this. I mean, this seems to be self-contradictory. "We don't want to have rules around hiring and firing! We just want companies to be good!" If there are no rules against particular abuses of labor, large, unethical companies will commit those abuses, especially if it makes things more convenient for them or someone can argue that it saves 0.03¢. It should not be considered to be OK to hire and fire at will.

tehlike 4y ago

What country is this? US? Is it 30 days or 60 days?

YuryVladkov 4y ago
Its in EU. 60 days to be exact, but accounting the new hear headcount calculations etc and all interview stages, it would be so hard for me

mmoustafa 4y ago

Very sorry to hear. The good news is there’s plenty of options to secure your immigration status while figuring out next steps. USCIS released (somewhat relaxed) guidance on the current environment for non-citizen workers. You can find a list here https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506?s=20&t=W0xevZYq3KxVpL9Sf8gVjQ https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506... In summary, all the “gray zone” escape hatches like the 2 month grace period or the B-2 status change are considered “in the clear” per this guidance.

zszugyi 4y ago
OP's offer was in Canada and is currently in the EU, I don't think any of the USCIS policies apply to them.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  Sorry it is my bad that I was not being clear and forgot to add the location. Thanks for all the helps tho.
ulfw 4y ago
Completely irrelevant to him going to Canada. Not everyone is going to the US.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  It is my bad to add that it is about Canada. I am sorry.

tyingq 4y ago

Rescinding an offer that's tied to a visa is just extra shitty, sorry this happened to you. Surely they know the consequences that you'll suffer. I wonder if the Amazon leadership chain that collectively decided to do this has any remorse. Edit: Feels like something that governments should tie to individual company's ability to use the visa program. Rescind a visa-tied offer (for no-fault-of-applicant reason), and we yank your right to use the program.

np- 4y ago
No, you are purely a number to them, it is very unlikely anyone cares or even is mildly interested in the full scope of the damage they’re causing. I have worked with companies like this, if you try to push them from the “guilt” angle they usually double down about how this is collectively the best solution (carefully omitting that what they mean is it’s the best solution for their personal ambitions and wallets)
iLoveOncall 4y ago
So what's the better option? Laying off someone already employed instead? It's not extra shitty, it's just as shitty as any other situation. It sucks for the person involved but the alternatives are not better. At least someone that got their offer rescinded can sue for promissory estoppel.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Perhaps it's not a zero-sum game, and nobody needs to be immediately laid off.
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    Thousands have already been in November and more are planned in Q1. Rescinding offers is honestly awful but it's by far the best solution if they want to reduce head count.
- powerbroker 4y ago
  That is something that works under U.S. law. I wonder if such a remedy is available if tried in a Canadian court. Any Canadian attorneys out there.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

skullone 4y ago

Ah man. I'm sorry. But, you made it to Amazon, you will be wanted for another opportunity real quick I bet!

rat9988 4y ago
Not in the current market no.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  I am from a 3rd world country. I was kind of believing in the notion of “pursuit of happiness”. I studied hard worked hard to make it into a FAANG so that I can live a decent life in a developed country and support my family and parents. Now it appears that I have risked the livelihood of my family for my stupid ambitions.
  - patrec 4y ago
    Your ambitions are not stupid but perfectly sensible and laudable. Unless there is something you didn't tell us you just have been really unlucky. So although your current situation sucks and must be very stressful, try not to lose heart and keep a cool head even if it's very difficult. If there is a signed contract, you have some legal avenues open to you and there are probably also quite a few people here on HN who would like to help you if they can. Finally unless you already tried that, it's also possible that either your last employer or one of the places that you rejected would still be willing to take you on if you explain to them what happened. And even if lost your apartment, you might be able to afford staying in youth hostels or similar for a while whilst you sort out your next steps.

NeverFade 4y ago

I don't have much of an advice for you, OP, other than what you already knew: try to find a new job ASAP. You may have to leave the US for a while, and come back to interview on a visitor visa, until you can get a new job to sponsor your work visa, which I can only assume to be H-1B. The above is not a substitute for the advice of an immigration attorney, which you absolutely must consult. More generally, I wonder if post-2022, offer letters are going to matter at all. 2022 exposed the fact that their protections was always a sort of a "gentleman's agreement". Your case is a great example of that: your only recourse is suing Amazon, a near trillion dollar corporation. My understanding is that your legal case would be shaky. The offer letter never provided much of a legal protection, we just liked to assume it did, and operated as if it did - hence why the typical advice on tech forums for employees was never to rescind our acceptance of an offer letter. Because it was never level sound, we saw the sanctity of the offer letter violated en-mass in 2022. It was exposed as an empty promise.

satya71 4y ago

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you find something new soon.

qaq 4y ago

"Are all places like this?" Well most of EU is not like this...

marvin 4y ago
Salaries are half though, so it's not all roses.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Not when you factor in the cost of living. Just house prices alone are drastically lower than in Silicon Valley.
  - qaq 4y ago
    Not all jobs in US are in SV, Also in tech hubs like Dublin the prices are getting there
    - hnlmorg 4y ago
      But the jobs outside of Silicon Valley will generally pay less too (unless you happen to be in another tech hub, but expect the cost of living to be greater there too). So you’re literally making the same point :)
      - qaq 4y ago
        While they pay less (not always) they pay better than EU one's plus taxes are lower in US.
        hnlmorg 4y ago
        It’s not a competition. ;) Jokes aside, I think your details are a little biased. Plenty of European tech hubs pay competitive salaries. And I know many Americans view tax as a net loss but Europeans do actually get a bunch of services for free because of taxes. Stuff Americans have to worry about on top of their daily daily lives. It’s not really possible to compare two counties as a like for like in the way yourself and the GP were attempting to. And my point wasn’t to say Europe is better or worse than America. Just that plenty of people in European tech hubs have a very decent standard of living too. You don’t have to work in America to earn a decent wage.

chevman 4y ago

I know a few folks relatively high up in Amazon HR/TA/People Ops type roles and the scale at which they operate recruiting is nuts. Mainly driven by the insane need for people in the ops/fulfillment/delivery areas, but corp roles are also similar. They typically make more offers than roles they have available, as they have fairly good analytics around what % of offers will not be filled post acceptance (ie someone simply never shows up for day 1 of work). Now, fast forward to today, and as you've heard in the press, and from Amazon directly, they are slowing hiring and may even do cuts in the new year. I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts. Still sucks and is a shitty situation.

phpisthebest 4y ago
While I understand this mentally it is still unethical to offer multiple people the job where by they start taking life changing steps where the employer knows full well they have extended multiple offers simply because "maybe one of them will not show up" I have experience a few times new employee's not showing up on day 1. I would NEVER even consider extended multiple offers to people just to ensure one of them shows up. That is more than just "shitty" as you say.
- lkschubert8 4y ago
  It's unethical because of the downside asymmetry of the two scenarios. In one someone has made significant life changes and left guaranteed income. On the opposite side a business entity won't be able to best optimize profits.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  If you can prove that the offer letter was issued in bad faith, for example the employer issued 2 offer letters for 1 position (hence one of the letters was issued for a job that doesn't exist) then I suspect you may have a legal case. 2022 exposed the fact that in the US, with its at-will employer, offer letters never offered much of a protection if they were offered in good faith, and then rescinded.

chrisgd 4y ago

Go scorched earth. Email Bezos, Jaffy, etc. tell them the situation and ask for additional compensation.

Firmwarrior 4y ago
I don't think that's going to accomplish more than this HN post on Christmas, honestly Jassy knows how easy it is for engineers who passed the Amazon bar to find new jobs. He's going to think "Welcome to The Jungle, kid" and move on If you ask me. OP dodged a bullet here. Amazon has turned into a toxic swamp
- NeverFade 4y ago
  You're writing this as if Bezos / Jaffy or anyone at their level is even going to read some random person's angry email.
  - chrisgd 4y ago
    Bezos read my email as a prime member. Think the chances of this getting you blackballed from work is low and the upside is there. Nothing left to lose in my opinion
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    The funny thing is one of their LPs is this: Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun. Hey Amazon, I am having no fun!
  - vertis 4y ago
    I've gotten a reply from Bezos (or more likely an EA) before, it happens. Sidenote: EAs are just as good. Having been on the end of an EA to a CEO telling me to fix something I can tell you it's not a place you want to be. They can, in a limited way, invoke CEO power. It's never a sure thing but it doesn't hurt to try either. Also Werner Vogels once popped into a hacker news thread I posted about my AWS account having leaked keys and a bill run up by a "hacker" (this was before it was common)[0][1]. [0]: https://vertis.io/2013/12/16/unauthorised-litecoin-mining/ https://vertis.io/2013/12/16/unauthorised-litecoin-mining/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6911908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6911908

schmidp 4y ago

We are in the EU and are looking for Java/Kotlin Devs in case you want to send over your CV (openresearch.com).

behringer 4y ago

Sorry. Amazon is not a place anybody should work for.

sjoerger 4y ago

November 31st doesn’t exist.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
Sorry, made a typo.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jimlongton 4y ago

Is your current post already filled? I'm in the EU and filling positions left by people resigning has taken months. Talk to your old manager and HR. They might be more desperate than they appear.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Staying at a job that you resigned from is not a good idea, unless it’s very short term. For many reasons.
- vertis 4y ago
  No that's just not true. I left a company years ago on good terms to join a (semi established) startup. 9 months later it turned out to be a real shitshow. I talked to one of the senior managers at my former company and they gave me a really great job offer. More senior than previous and with a pay rise above the bump I'd gotten going to the startup. Stayed with that company for another 4 years (7.5 in total). It'll vary based on a lot of factors. Very few employers would begrudge someone going for a huge pay rise FAANG opportunity, and the fact that they got the role means they're good material. As always it's going to depend on a huge number of factors. It doesn't have to be negative though.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    Your story is different. You left for a significant time then returned. That’s not what OP is talking about.
    - vertis 4y ago
      One of the great things about humans is the ability to take one experience and abstract it to gain knowledge about others. In this case I was implying (as was my sibling comment) that resigning isn't necessarily impossible to undo. Highly depends on their behaviour and value to the company and colleagues. If they're valuable and well liked it could be an option.
- 4y ago

GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago

Sue them for damages

spac 4y ago

With the visibility of this post I would make sure to link or highlight your skills so others can help. Best of luck, I'm sorry this happened to you. It sucks.

jpiasetz 4y ago

I saw this on Reddit yesterday so hopefully you were the op there as well. The advice there was all talk to a lawyer which you should do. Either: 1) they are incorrect following the law or 2) they are correctly following the law And nobody can tell with 100% certainty either without going to court because law isn’t deterministic. If it is 1 Amazon could be either: a) incompetently not considering your situation individually and will roll over when it gets escalated b) maliciously offer low and intending to fight it Both Canada and EU have strong labour laws so probably worth fighting it even if you lose the 1 month

ta988 4y ago

Really sorry to hear that. This is a reminder that you should never work for Amazon if you need a visa. Sadly your story is not the first one I heard. The most recent, a friend of mine was promised they would support her visa application after one year working there (which is really simple and cheap for them) and now they say it is against their rules.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
CoastalCoder 4y ago
I'm curious if there will ever be an inflection point where Amazon's reputation is so bad that they just can't hire the workers they want, even with competitive total comp. My intuition is that there will always be enough people who are too desperate, or uninformed, to steer clear. I hope I'm wrong.
- YuryVladkov 4y ago
  I would 4x my TC and be an immigrant in Canada which has a very established permanent residency system. I knew about the PiP system, but I had no idea that they could rescind the offer like this. I have turned some other offers down to accept Amazon’s, and they left me like this
- solardev 4y ago
  I wouldn't work for them if they offered me a million a year. Everything I've heard about them suggests they are unethical and have zero concern for their cattle. But I'm not in the OP'S situation.

arealaccount 4y ago

This happened to me a few years ago, although I did not have to worry about the visa part. My previous job was more than happy to take me back. It felt gross, but nonetheless I went back. Turned out to be a good bet for them as I remembered and felt indebted to them. It may work to try to contact your previous employer. In a purely rational context they should take you back and it’s a win for them.

gbear0 4y ago

Has anyone tried to add special clauses to their initial contract along the lines of: "If the offer is rescinded before the start date, the applicant will be awarded 3 months salary. If the applicant is fired within 3 months of the start date, the applicant will be awarded relocation fees to previous location." And you'd update that based on costs of moving, or possibly the state of the economy and your risk tolerance. If they don't agree to that, then they clearly aren't serious about hiring you, and you dodge a bullet. This would hopefully reduce cases where they hand out multiple offers for a single job, or at least compensate applicants due to a change from management.

scarface74 4y ago
Unless you are a special snowflake with a unique skillset, why would a company the size of Amazon ever veer from their standard contract?
- gbear0 4y ago
  Why are they hiring people that need a visa and need to relocate across the world? The ask for compensation for getting dropped before the start date should usually be an easy one for a company to accept since that shouldn't be normal operating procedures. Otherwise, they're aware that they're explicitly screwing over people and aren't serious about hiring. Now we're back at my earlier claim, and you dodged a bullet. You don't need to be special, but you definitely shouldn't think of yourself as a cog in the machine. If you do think of yourself as a cog, or this is an offer you can't refuse, then you've already given up your bargaining power, and you are willing to accept this.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You are a cog in the machine with a company that has over a 1 and a half million employees. Andy Jassy is my skip x 7 manager and he doesn’t know me from Adam. I doubt my skip x 3 manager would know me if he ran into on the street. How much bargaining power do you think you really have? If any of us got hit by a bus, they would have an open req out before our body’s were in the ground and only be remembered when our name came up during a git blame.

scarface74 4y ago

Just a general rant: It didn’t become apparent to me how much this environment sucks for people here on H1B until I asked on HN why would anyone put up with the shit show that Twitter has become and they said a large contingent may be H1B holders. My general advice to always have a “go to hell fund” is null and void if no matter how much money you have in the bank, you only have a limited amount of time to get another job.

rmk 4y ago

I'm sorry to hear that. Are you a refugee? Why do you say you will be on the streets? I hope you can figure out a temporary work situation to keep you housed, clothed and fed while you figure out what's next. I hope you can conserve the money you will receive and use it wisely, considering it's going to be a substantial amount of money and can see you through the winter perhaps. It is very discouraging to be caught out in a bad market, and by an unscrupulous employer such as Amazon, but I hope you take some time to step back and enjoy Christmas. Companies often cut with no second thought, especially during recessions, but this is pretty capricious even by corporate standards. Best of luck.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
I am from a 3rd world country. Currently I am working in Europe with a work visa. When I become unemployed, my visa becomes void and I will be deported. I already told my landlord that I was gonna leave the house in early Jan. They found a new tenant. Now, I need to go back to my home country and find a house and a job there.

deleted 4y ago

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jmyeet 4y ago

This is the advice I'd give to anyone, particularly in this market: don't resign until you physically start your new job. Particularly when the new job is in a different country, even if your contract requires you to give a certain period of notice, it really doesn't matter. So in your case I would've started with Amazon in January and then resigned. A lot now depends on what country you are in, what visa you are on and what other visa you may qualify for. You may qualify for a temporary Schengen visa. That buys 90 days at least. The country you're in may cover cases like this. You should probably speak to an immigration lawyer in that country. There's not really anything you can do about Amazon Canada rescinding your offer. It sucks but don't waste energy on it. Just move on.

ghaff 4y ago
Maybe it's a higher bar to lay off a brand new employee than to rescind an offer letter. But I don't think that's a given. It still may be good advice in the current climate though.

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vertis 4y ago

Hi YuryVladkov, This really sucks. There is lots of advice but one piece of advice worth mentioning is that you can freelance (e.g. Estonian or other EU company) and then you can use visa free days and live like a digital nomad. Depending on your origin country a lot of countries have visa free travel. In the EU you can stay indefinitely by going in and out of the schengen zone. Using Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Ireland and Cyprus as places to spend time. And then the rest of the 90 in 180 days inside Schengen. This might not work for you if you don't have visa free travel, but it's worth mentioning anyway. In the mean time you can sort things out and apply for other jobs. So long as you stay clear of the major world cities (e.g. Berlin, Munich, Paris) airbnb and equivalent can be quite affordable for monthly stays. For example Sofia is quite a nice city and has quite affordable accommodation and coworking. I'm happy to answer more questions if you want. My contact details are on my profile (prefer telegram).

extasia 4y ago
Note that Croatia is joining schengen in 2023.

hamilyon2 4y ago

Please send your resume to my email.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
Sorry I could not see your email
- hamilyon2 4y ago
  Sorry, my bad, I put it into description now

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago

You need a wrongful dismissal lawyer in the Canadian province you would have been working in. Canada has had a number of successful "wrongful hiring" lawsuits where the prospective employer has had to pay up. Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation. A letter from a wrongful dismissal lawyer will likely open the window to a better deal without having to file a lawsuit as companies don't like to see their name dragged in the mud with this kind of lawsuit.

benj111 4y ago
>Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation I wouldn't be hopeful about this. Speaking from the UK, we have wrongful dismissal that's basically a breach of contract, so you're basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks, although I think it takes a week to kick in. You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things. However most British employment law protections stem from eu law. Wrongful dismissal is kind of a holdover at this point so it's possible Canadian law is now very different, despite being from the same root.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
  Canadian wrongful dismissal law is quite different. It's not so much the statutes as the precedents that have been developed in a number of court rulings. If you have followed the Business section of any Canadian newspaper, you would be well aware of employment law rulings in Canadian courts. I suspect Amazon HR has assumed that they can get away in Canada with what they do in the US. They may be about to be taught an expensive lesson.
- squiffsquiff 4y ago
  > basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks That depends on the contract. 2 weeks might be typical for a US contract but it can certainly vary. > You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things. I'm sorry I don't know where you get this idea of 'the British way of doing things' I've lived here my whole life and I've never heard this. Regardless, it doesn't constitute an argument. Consequential loss is absolutely a thing.

patrec 4y ago

> As a gift, they will pay me a months salary. Have you got a signed contract? In which case them paying you is not a "gift" but something you are most likely legally entitled to, and you should find out how much they are required to pay you first of all. You can probably get a decent idea by a bit of googling, and if it looks like you are entitled to a good bit more than the one month they offered you, you should seek out an employment lawyer asap. If the law is on your side and you are lawyered up, hopefully it won't be necessary to sue them. > In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust. Never trust faceless magacorps, especially not ones with a long documented pattern of screwing over their employees (and everyone else) without a second thought and right when they are going through mass lay-offs. Working for bigtech can be a great idea compensation and career wise, but never lose sight of the fact that to them you are just a replaceable cog whatever the in-house brain-washing department will try to tell you. Also, try to understand how critical the team you are hired into is to the company's current revenue streams, especially if the economy looks like it does now. I would also suggest putting some contact details in your HN profile, maybe someone will reach out who can help (either with advice or, if you are really lucky and happen to have the right skills and tell people here about them, potentially even a visa-sponsorship; one difficulty is that you are on a short time frame and typically only larger companies will offer visa sponsorships unless you have some particular key skills). > Are all places like this? No, but you should be prepared to get screwed over at startups or small to medium companies as well. For faceless megacorps reading up on (ex-)employee experiences on forums like HN and glassdoor etc. is a good idea. For small companies being a good judge of character and talking to the CEO or similar as part of the interview helps.

deodar 4y ago

I am sorry to hear that Yury. The timing especially is unfortunate heading into the Christmas holidays. I suggest talking to an EU immigration lawyer at the earliest about your options to continue living in the EU while you look for new employment. You can do a quick phone consultation (in the US it costs about $75 for a 20 minute consultation with a lawyer, I hope something similar exists in your EU country). From my own experience, there is no substitute for talking to a lawyer because they can give clear and crisp answers about your options. Good luck and I hope you are able to overcome this hurdle.

bentlegen 4y ago

176 points, 100 comments in 1 hour … downvoted by HN mods and off the front page immediately. As a point of feedback, when mods get so obviously involved in suppressing content seemingly-valued by the community it would be nice to understand the motivation behind that.

hodgesrm 4y ago
How do you know it's downvoted by HN mods?
- bentlegen 4y ago
  Do you have an alternative explanation? It was #2 when I first viewed this thread (with far less points and comments), and a few minutes later it was off the front page entirely. But this question is exactly why I would like illumination. The mods could respond to my post and explain.
  - YuryVladkov 4y ago
    I am also surprised about that. I hope that is not the case.

ishyfishyy 4y ago

Could you potentially explain your situation to Meta and see if they can get your offer back, even if it's for another team?

Ancalagon 4y ago

Y’all, stop accepting offers from Amazon. We’ve been shown time and time again they don’t care about their employees

YuryVladkov 4y ago
True, I am paying for my mistakes with a huge cost

CommieBobDole 4y ago

I swear, if Amazon was kidnapping people off the street and grinding them up to use the slurry as machine coolant, there would be people in threads like this saying, "Well, they could use water, but it's 25% less efficient which would increase costs, and at their scale those costs would be larger than the value of the lives of the people they're grinding up, so I see where they're coming from."

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zht 4y ago

Did you have to repost this from blind?

YuryVladkov 4y ago
Do you know how many people are affected? The info session regarding with work visas had more than 300 people attending. And lets say I did. what is wrong to post this from blind

deleted 4y ago

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leetcodesucks 4y ago

[dead]

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago

Yuri, After reading about your visa situation, a wrongful dismissal lawyer can claim for the extra expenses because of your visa situation including returning to home country, temporary accommodation, possibly being forced off employment market for an extended time until your visa situation is sorted out, extra travel etc. Wrongful dismissal law (precedents) requires you to make reasonable effort to mitigate damages;so keep up your job search. Remember that once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon.

ekanes 4y ago
> once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon If this is the case, I wonder if it implies that you can pursue an equivalent job IN CANADA, with Amazon paying for anything lost in the process...

BonoboIO 4y ago

This is just unethical of Amazon, but we are talking about Amazon. They don't care shit about people. Sorry, but it is true. I feel very sorry for you Yury.

SkyLemon 4y ago

Given this is in Canada, we have decent labor laws, not as good as the UK, but much better then the US. With that said, go talk to a lawyer, note free ones will alway tell you they can get more.

mardifoufs 4y ago
In which way are labor laws better in Canada than in the US? especially for work visa holders?

faangiq 4y ago

Amazon Prime will rename to Amazon PIP in 2023.

thatguymike 4y ago

Reach back out to Meta. They're not offended that you turned down their offer, they understand that situations change, and they very well might still want to hire you.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
They laid off recently and I could not find any E4 job posting

birdymcbird 4y ago

i can’t offer a solution to your problem but here is another point of view. consider it a blessing for your long term mental health. companies like amazon will bring you to Canada or US on a work visa and literally pound you. the cut throat culture brings out most toxic behavior in individuals. your going to be in competition at amazon of people from different cultures. sounds great on paper but different cultures and backgrounds have taught people especially from developing world to naturally react and minimize their own risk exposure in a particular way. endless political battles at middle management levels and teammates throwing each other under bus or refusing to cooperate in case the “other” person gets credit. moving to a country on a work visa sponsored by amazon is not a good idea.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
Will try to shift my mental mod like this, thanks

Relighted 4y ago

#damagecontrol. Check out the amzn offers in EU asap, you were hired and that's status @amzn as long as the recruiter has any kind of hart they will get you on the table of eu recruiters. Good luck. Thare the exact positions urls to them you have a strong belief you fit.

ranman 4y ago
The amazon recruiters are some of the most idiotic humans you'll ever meet. At least in NAMER. When I was hiring at AWS I would actively try to avoid the candidate talking to the recruiter too much because the recruiter would frequently say things that were entirely false.

obynio 4y ago

Happened to me as well, I got a visa and an offer to work in Japan. I resigned from my current company, send the leave notice for my apartment, started packing and was supposed to fly there a month later. Omicron appeared a few weeks later, Japan sealed their borders, canceled all pending visa. No exception. But Japanese nationals were still allowed to travel freely anywhere and get working visa for Europe (of course). Luckily my previous job accepted to cancel the resignation and I managed to keep my apartment since I had a very good relation with my landlord. But I still hold a nasty grunge to the Japanese government for that dick move. When I finally made it 18 months later, I got randomly interviewed at the airport and talked about this covid management shit show, the lack of reciprocity between JP and EU, their government's inability to take any sensible action in a whole year... Even the interviewer was embarrassed. Needless to say, the interview was never broadcasted. Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are wonderful people and there is a lot to love about them, their culture and their language. But they're governed by (very) old and incompetent politicians that rules the country like we're in 1980 and never cease to amaze me by their inaction and lack of innovation.

YuryVladkov 4y ago
feels just bad.. sigh. It is good that you could recover yourself. I am waiting for holiday season to end so that I can talk with my old company. They already sent me exit interview etc so I am skeptical if it can be reversible

fnbr 4y ago

Contact Meta, they might still want to hire you.

whinvik 4y ago

I think your best option right now is to ask your previous employer if they will have you back. What type of visa did you have. If you had a Blue Card, you are typically allowed 3 months to find another job. Maybe HN can help find you another one quickly.