5 ms·

This is the classic answer to the classic question about anarchy: "who will do the unpleasant, demeaning work?" "We only think it's unpleasant because we make

This is the classic answer to the classic question about anarchy: "who will do the unpleasant, demeaning work?" "We only think it's unpleasant because we make it unpleasant. We can have clean, well lit factories. We just have to prioritize making that work more pleasant."

maerF0x0 4y ago
Also perhaps the least dignified work should be the highest paid? Unfortunately America has a sort of wealth cult going on that we dignify (and deify) those who are already wealthy.
- kaesar14 4y ago
  The unfortunate reality is because these jobs are plentiful and easy to do (NOT saying they aren’t demanding, just that they don’t require advanced training) it incentivizes a race to the bottom in terms of wages - but we should do better as a society in guaranteeing high working standards and wages through regulation instead.
  - lesam 4y ago
    If there was an alternative in the form of a guaranteed not-terrible job at minimum wage, wouldn’t that necessarily raise wages (or maybe working conditions) for currently terrible jobs? Giving people a real choice seems easier than regulating every possible kind of job.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Why even bother with a guaranteed not terrible job? Seems simpler to go with universal basic income than wasting resources on uneconomic jobs.
      - andrepd 4y ago
        There is a problem right with the motion of "uneconomic". If fixing basic infrastructure or growing food is unprofitable, but building sportscars or yachts is not... that seems to indicate a problem with the economic system of allocation of resources.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        If society thinks there are too many sports cars or yachts, then it can increase marginal wealth/income/property/sales taxes. And if society thinks there is insufficient food or infrastructure, then it can pay people to make food and build infrastructure. Either way, if both are competing for the same supply of labor, only the highest bidder will get it.
        andrepd 4y ago
        Society can think whatever it wants, as long as it's only a small elite (truly) calling the shots and the will of the majority is ignored. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Especially https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170126184834-00965-mediumThumb-S1537592714001595_fig1g.jpg?pub-status=live https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge...
        janalsncm 4y ago
        There are too many sports cars and yachts. We don’t need a single one of them. There are half a million homeless people in the US. The only reason taxes aren’t being raised on those and other luxury goods is because politics isn’t controlled by an algorithm but by a system whose outputs feed back into its inputs: the wealthy are made wealthier through political decisions.
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    Plentiful and easy to do means nothing in the face of sufficiently low supply of workers. If there isn't a low supply of workers, then why is there a quote given about people turning down work?
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Or, precisely, through programs like this. What Marx called the "reserve army of labour" ensures that these jobs will remain poorly paid.
  - 8note 4y ago
    Given the jobs are plentiful, isn't that an incentive to raise the wages? If you actually want somebody at your horrible job, you have to incentivize them to do yours and not somebody else's
burritas 4y ago
How do we make cleaning septic tanks more enjoyable?
- guerrilla 4y ago
  By paying a lot more.
  - burritas 4y ago
    Cheaper to hire a felon or immigrant. I'm not saying I agree with this arrangement.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.
      - burritas 4y ago
        I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.
        arglebargle123 4y ago
        UBI would go a long way towards pulling the very poor up out of the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."
        luckylion 4y ago
        We don't have that cycle in Germany at all. Yet we don't see any of the promises of UBI materializing.

maerF0x0 4y ago

Also perhaps the least dignified work should be the highest paid? Unfortunately America has a sort of wealth cult going on that we dignify (and deify) those who are already wealthy.

kaesar14 4y ago
The unfortunate reality is because these jobs are plentiful and easy to do (NOT saying they aren’t demanding, just that they don’t require advanced training) it incentivizes a race to the bottom in terms of wages - but we should do better as a society in guaranteeing high working standards and wages through regulation instead.
- lesam 4y ago
  If there was an alternative in the form of a guaranteed not-terrible job at minimum wage, wouldn’t that necessarily raise wages (or maybe working conditions) for currently terrible jobs? Giving people a real choice seems easier than regulating every possible kind of job.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Why even bother with a guaranteed not terrible job? Seems simpler to go with universal basic income than wasting resources on uneconomic jobs.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      There is a problem right with the motion of "uneconomic". If fixing basic infrastructure or growing food is unprofitable, but building sportscars or yachts is not... that seems to indicate a problem with the economic system of allocation of resources.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        If society thinks there are too many sports cars or yachts, then it can increase marginal wealth/income/property/sales taxes. And if society thinks there is insufficient food or infrastructure, then it can pay people to make food and build infrastructure. Either way, if both are competing for the same supply of labor, only the highest bidder will get it.
        andrepd 4y ago
        Society can think whatever it wants, as long as it's only a small elite (truly) calling the shots and the will of the majority is ignored. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... Especially https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170126184834-00965-mediumThumb-S1537592714001595_fig1g.jpg?pub-status=live https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge...
        janalsncm 4y ago
        There are too many sports cars and yachts. We don’t need a single one of them. There are half a million homeless people in the US. The only reason taxes aren’t being raised on those and other luxury goods is because politics isn’t controlled by an algorithm but by a system whose outputs feed back into its inputs: the wealthy are made wealthier through political decisions.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  Plentiful and easy to do means nothing in the face of sufficiently low supply of workers. If there isn't a low supply of workers, then why is there a quote given about people turning down work?
- andrepd 4y ago
  Or, precisely, through programs like this. What Marx called the "reserve army of labour" ensures that these jobs will remain poorly paid.
- 8note 4y ago
  Given the jobs are plentiful, isn't that an incentive to raise the wages? If you actually want somebody at your horrible job, you have to incentivize them to do yours and not somebody else's

burritas 4y ago

How do we make cleaning septic tanks more enjoyable?

guerrilla 4y ago
By paying a lot more.
- burritas 4y ago
  Cheaper to hire a felon or immigrant. I'm not saying I agree with this arrangement.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.
    - burritas 4y ago
      I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position". I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.
      - arglebargle123 4y ago
        UBI would go a long way towards pulling the very poor up out of the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."
        luckylion 4y ago
        We don't have that cycle in Germany at all. Yet we don't see any of the promises of UBI materializing.