8 ms·

Friendship Forever

84 points by dheavy 4y ago

dmitriid 4y ago
I came to study in Turkey in 1999. Until about 2003 or so it was still very common to see male friends holding hands. It became very uncommon towards mid-naughts.
- anon291 4y ago
  As awareness of homosexuality and acceptance of it spreads, friendly measures like this between platonic friends become less common. This is not a moral judgement, just an observation. People don't want to be seen or feel like they're seen as something theyre not.
  - zwkrt 4y ago
    The idea that gay people having more social standing and more rights has somehow ruined straight relationships is laughable. You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?
    - cookieswumchorr 4y ago
      well, yes. Having gay sex was criminal, holding hands was totally fine. Hell, forget holding hands, how about kissing each other on the lips? This used to be an acceptable behavior for straight folks. Remember the Brezhnev-Honecker portrait?
    - tifik 4y ago
      > ruined Parent didnt say or even suggest that. > when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands He's making an observation. Have you been to Turkey at around the same and have a different experience?
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      You are completely misreading what the person said. Holding hands between people of the same gender is now seen as a sign of a gay relationship (aka: couples holding friends). Therefore holding hands is no longer the sign of just friendship. This is especially true in countries like Turkey where being gay is not really accepted.
    - emptyfile 4y ago
      >You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands? Is that really so shocking to you? You can observe this in any Arab Muslim country today.
  - tsol 4y ago
    Counterpoint-- these cultures are perfectly well aware of homosexuality. It points to something deeper in American culture, IMO, where that men don't really have a comfortable place to just exist. There is no definition of masculinity that isn't in flux. As an Indian, there's a certain coldness in American culture, at least for men. It almost feels like it's considered almost wrong to try to sincerely connect with another man. But I rarely see this tension with most of the foreign cultures I've experienced. It doesn't help that most people don't consider it a problem. They see life as "men are supposed to be independent and if you get lonely you just date". If you try to insist there is another way, some amount of people will continuously push back as if it's an insult to their culture(it really isn't meant that way!). Which, okay I can almost understand, but then I go back to seeing constant posts about how lonely people say they are and I'm like "well that's what I was saying"
- et-al 4y ago
  There's an old NYTimes article from 1985 that mentioned this change in Italy: https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/10/magazine/about-men-making-contact.html https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/10/magazine/about-men-making... It's unfortunate.
zwkrt 4y ago
It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about their personal lives. I agree about pretty much every part of this article though. I feel bad for straight guys, how do y’all get by in life with such a lack of intimacy (physical and emotional) with your close friends?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  I hug my friends (I’m fairly straight) but yeah the whole classically masculine vibe makes me pretty uncomfortable
- User23 4y ago
  This is pretty simple. Back when being a sexual deviant was heavily stigmatized, there was an overwhelming presumption that any public male-male affection was platonic. Thus these images wouldn't have raised any eyebrows in the time they were taken. Now that we live in an age where any perversion that doesn't involve children is acceptable, normal men are much less comfortable acting like, well, normal men. It's too bad. Even when I was younger, which wasn't all that long ago, it was normal for two boys to hold hands in friendship.
- fruit2020 4y ago
  Even going to a pub with a friend and I get strange looks. 2 straight guys having some beers. I guess gayness ruined the rainbow for everybody else.
  - zwkrt 4y ago
    Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.
TranquilMarmot 4y ago
The part about remote work removing a driving force for friendships hit me pretty hard. In February of 2020, I had a dozen or so really close friends that I would see every day. We would laugh together, get food together, and work on hard problems together. In March of 2020, we all started working remotely and I haven't seen any of them since. Even if I wanted to, almost all of them have moved to other cities, states, or countries. Most left the company we were at (including me). We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have. Now, I work with a team of people who are completely scattered geographically. Maybe once every few months I will see one of them in person if they happen to be in the area. They feel like strictly co-workers- I don't think we've ever really laughed or just goofed around that much, and certainly aren't hanging out outside of work hours. I wouldn't be able to call one of them up in a time of crisis and ask for help. I miss my friends, and the simple solution would be "go find new ones!" but, like this essay points out, that's not exactly easy and there's a "blind spot" about how hard it can be. There's also still a pandemic going on- I haven't caught COVID-19 yet and don't plan on it. Any sort of friendship that would involve physically being near other people on a regular basis is just asking for it. To me, getting sick is not worth having a friend, even though it is wrecking my mental health. I know that equation is different for other people.
- zwkrt 4y ago
  > getting sick is not worth having a friend Everyone has their own risk analysis. My analysis is that this is totally out of whack. Covid will be around longer than you’ll be alive. Make a friend it won’t kill you. What really gets me though I know people with your level of risk aversion* who force their developing kids into lockdown. I think the cohort born ~2014-2018 are really gonna be an odd bunch. * partial risk aversion. The risk of social isolation is not taken into account and weighed against.
  - gg82 4y ago
    I think people totally don't understand the risk analysis here. I think getting covid is absolutely worth getting covid for most people. The health benefits of having friends is not being taken into account at all... ie mental health, exercise, life experiences, someone to help you when you need it, etc.
baxtr 4y ago
We need “work/life” balance because, at some point, we started separating work from life. It didn’t use to be that way. And we should begin to change it again. Building companies with friends is the best way I have found to bring these two sides of life together. And what about those people who say don’t start a company with friends or family? F* them! Sure, friendships might suffer. But hey, so what. That’s life. And at least you’re surrounded by friends who love you, and you love them. Instead of random assholes who just wanna progress their career.
- ajb 4y ago
  The problem finding friendships at work is that if you're just an employee, that's another thing your exploitative boss can use as leverage. Leave the company and lose your friends. Work long hours or you're letting your friends down. And the company won't consider those friendships for a nanosecond if getting rid of you is to their benefit.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    Exactly. That's why you need to start companies with friends.
  - thebigspacefuck 4y ago
    This is stupid. If a friendship stretches beyond work, you can remain friends after you move on to another job. If you all work for an exploitative boss, move on and help your friends find a job at the new company that doesn’t suck.
    - watwut 4y ago
      That second step requires work life balance rather then workplace being also the place where you are expected to socialize on top of working. Because that additional workplace socializing takes additional time ... making you not having time to meet up with former collegues.
- mccorrinall 4y ago
  I love this comment. Really makes me think about what I should build with whom.
adisusanto 4y ago
P
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
It is still very common in many parts of India, or even in Indian quarters in places like Singapore, to see young male Indians hold hands. I didn't find it odd at all. I actually thought, what a pity that in western societies this behavior can be seen as odd.
fsiefken 4y ago
The recent award winning Belgian film "Close" is in part about the awkwardness of (young) male friendship in western cultures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqPaPT6E_1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqPaPT6E_1k
randomkorean 4y ago
Hand holding is (or was) acceptable by boys in Korea; and so was non-sexual physical touching, even well into the college age by young men. So it was a shock when I first befriended some Koreans in the US on student visas back in the 1980s. That angl-saxon coldness was a learning experience for both parties. Being raised in the US by an emotionally distant Korean mother (Asperger’s?) I just thought that the US standard was normal.

84 points by dheavy 4y ago

I came to study in Turkey in 1999. Until about 2003 or so it was still very common to see male friends holding hands. It became very uncommon towards mid-naughts.

anon291 4y ago
As awareness of homosexuality and acceptance of it spreads, friendly measures like this between platonic friends become less common. This is not a moral judgement, just an observation. People don't want to be seen or feel like they're seen as something theyre not.
- zwkrt 4y ago
  The idea that gay people having more social standing and more rights has somehow ruined straight relationships is laughable. You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?
  - cookieswumchorr 4y ago
    well, yes. Having gay sex was criminal, holding hands was totally fine. Hell, forget holding hands, how about kissing each other on the lips? This used to be an acceptable behavior for straight folks. Remember the Brezhnev-Honecker portrait?
  - tifik 4y ago
    > ruined Parent didnt say or even suggest that. > when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands He's making an observation. Have you been to Turkey at around the same and have a different experience?
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    You are completely misreading what the person said. Holding hands between people of the same gender is now seen as a sign of a gay relationship (aka: couples holding friends). Therefore holding hands is no longer the sign of just friendship. This is especially true in countries like Turkey where being gay is not really accepted.
  - emptyfile 4y ago
    >You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands? Is that really so shocking to you? You can observe this in any Arab Muslim country today.
- tsol 4y ago
  Counterpoint-- these cultures are perfectly well aware of homosexuality. It points to something deeper in American culture, IMO, where that men don't really have a comfortable place to just exist. There is no definition of masculinity that isn't in flux. As an Indian, there's a certain coldness in American culture, at least for men. It almost feels like it's considered almost wrong to try to sincerely connect with another man. But I rarely see this tension with most of the foreign cultures I've experienced. It doesn't help that most people don't consider it a problem. They see life as "men are supposed to be independent and if you get lonely you just date". If you try to insist there is another way, some amount of people will continuously push back as if it's an insult to their culture(it really isn't meant that way!). Which, okay I can almost understand, but then I go back to seeing constant posts about how lonely people say they are and I'm like "well that's what I was saying"
et-al 4y ago
There's an old NYTimes article from 1985 that mentioned this change in Italy: https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/10/magazine/about-men-making-contact.html https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/10/magazine/about-men-making... It's unfortunate.

zwkrt 4y ago

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about their personal lives. I agree about pretty much every part of this article though. I feel bad for straight guys, how do y’all get by in life with such a lack of intimacy (physical and emotional) with your close friends?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
NegativeLatency 4y ago
I hug my friends (I’m fairly straight) but yeah the whole classically masculine vibe makes me pretty uncomfortable
User23 4y ago
This is pretty simple. Back when being a sexual deviant was heavily stigmatized, there was an overwhelming presumption that any public male-male affection was platonic. Thus these images wouldn't have raised any eyebrows in the time they were taken. Now that we live in an age where any perversion that doesn't involve children is acceptable, normal men are much less comfortable acting like, well, normal men. It's too bad. Even when I was younger, which wasn't all that long ago, it was normal for two boys to hold hands in friendship.
fruit2020 4y ago
Even going to a pub with a friend and I get strange looks. 2 straight guys having some beers. I guess gayness ruined the rainbow for everybody else.
- zwkrt 4y ago
  Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.

TranquilMarmot 4y ago

The part about remote work removing a driving force for friendships hit me pretty hard. In February of 2020, I had a dozen or so really close friends that I would see every day. We would laugh together, get food together, and work on hard problems together. In March of 2020, we all started working remotely and I haven't seen any of them since. Even if I wanted to, almost all of them have moved to other cities, states, or countries. Most left the company we were at (including me). We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have. Now, I work with a team of people who are completely scattered geographically. Maybe once every few months I will see one of them in person if they happen to be in the area. They feel like strictly co-workers- I don't think we've ever really laughed or just goofed around that much, and certainly aren't hanging out outside of work hours. I wouldn't be able to call one of them up in a time of crisis and ask for help. I miss my friends, and the simple solution would be "go find new ones!" but, like this essay points out, that's not exactly easy and there's a "blind spot" about how hard it can be. There's also still a pandemic going on- I haven't caught COVID-19 yet and don't plan on it. Any sort of friendship that would involve physically being near other people on a regular basis is just asking for it. To me, getting sick is not worth having a friend, even though it is wrecking my mental health. I know that equation is different for other people.

zwkrt 4y ago
> getting sick is not worth having a friend Everyone has their own risk analysis. My analysis is that this is totally out of whack. Covid will be around longer than you’ll be alive. Make a friend it won’t kill you. What really gets me though I know people with your level of risk aversion* who force their developing kids into lockdown. I think the cohort born ~2014-2018 are really gonna be an odd bunch. * partial risk aversion. The risk of social isolation is not taken into account and weighed against.
- gg82 4y ago
  I think people totally don't understand the risk analysis here. I think getting covid is absolutely worth getting covid for most people. The health benefits of having friends is not being taken into account at all... ie mental health, exercise, life experiences, someone to help you when you need it, etc.

baxtr 4y ago

We need “work/life” balance because, at some point, we started separating work from life. It didn’t use to be that way. And we should begin to change it again. Building companies with friends is the best way I have found to bring these two sides of life together. And what about those people who say don’t start a company with friends or family? F* them! Sure, friendships might suffer. But hey, so what. That’s life. And at least you’re surrounded by friends who love you, and you love them. Instead of random assholes who just wanna progress their career.

ajb 4y ago
The problem finding friendships at work is that if you're just an employee, that's another thing your exploitative boss can use as leverage. Leave the company and lose your friends. Work long hours or you're letting your friends down. And the company won't consider those friendships for a nanosecond if getting rid of you is to their benefit.
- baxtr 4y ago
  Exactly. That's why you need to start companies with friends.
- thebigspacefuck 4y ago
  This is stupid. If a friendship stretches beyond work, you can remain friends after you move on to another job. If you all work for an exploitative boss, move on and help your friends find a job at the new company that doesn’t suck.
  - watwut 4y ago
    That second step requires work life balance rather then workplace being also the place where you are expected to socialize on top of working. Because that additional workplace socializing takes additional time ... making you not having time to meet up with former collegues.
mccorrinall 4y ago
I love this comment. Really makes me think about what I should build with whom.

adisusanto 4y ago

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

It is still very common in many parts of India, or even in Indian quarters in places like Singapore, to see young male Indians hold hands. I didn't find it odd at all. I actually thought, what a pity that in western societies this behavior can be seen as odd.

fsiefken 4y ago

The recent award winning Belgian film "Close" is in part about the awkwardness of (young) male friendship in western cultures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqPaPT6E_1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqPaPT6E_1k

randomkorean 4y ago

Hand holding is (or was) acceptable by boys in Korea; and so was non-sexual physical touching, even well into the college age by young men. So it was a shock when I first befriended some Koreans in the US on student visas back in the 1980s. That angl-saxon coldness was a learning experience for both parties. Being raised in the US by an emotionally distant Korean mother (Asperger’s?) I just thought that the US standard was normal.