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What a novel and original argument. Actually Bitcoin and Ethereum have a known supply and limited inflation (Ethereum is actually deflationary now) so best sui

What a novel and original argument. Actually Bitcoin and Ethereum have a known supply and limited inflation (Ethereum is actually deflationary now) so best suited to not go to zero. The USD on the other hand… https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL https://ultrasound.money/ https://ultrasound.money/

eloff 4y ago
With stocks, you're purchasing future profits. That puts a floor under things. With crypto you're purchasing??? There's no floor. It has limited utility.
- danuker 4y ago
  The floor denominated in dollars can still go to zero. The utility of Bitcoin is its global payment network.
  - schrodinger 4y ago
    The floor of dollars is the might of the US military. If you haven’t noticed it’s prettttty strong these days.
    - scottiebarnes 4y ago
      The military has the power to stop hyperinflation?
      - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
        Yes. It’s cringe but a war in the right circumstances could stop price growth in the US
    - eloff 4y ago
      I keep hearing this repeated, but the link between military and the strength of the dollar is tenuous at best.
      - micah94 4y ago
        Oil priced in dollars. Countries forced to buy/hold dollars. Country tries to use another currency to buy their oil, they end up like Saddam or Gaddafi c/o the US military.
        Ekaros 4y ago
        Brazil, India, China might be too much for US military. Or at least two of those.
  - drnonsense42 4y ago
    But, the floor of profits for a company is not denominated in dollars. It is shit you put in your mouth and eat or a useful product like a refrigerator which you can put things which allow you to not die. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is some electricity, and arguably a waste of it.
    - vba616 4y ago
      >It is shit you put in your mouth and eat /happy gilmore
  - this_user 4y ago
    > The utility of Bitcoin is its global payment network. So zero then?
  - eloff 4y ago
    No, if dollars suffer hyperinflation, companies are still worth the present value of future cash flows. They'll suffer like everyone else in a tough environment, but they won't go to zero unless the company goes bankrupt. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has next to no utility and no profits. It can go to zero.
- legutierr 4y ago
  Future profits of a public company can't go to zero? Bankruptcy is a thing, after all. How much are Pan Am, Enron, Lehman Brothers worth today?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I've had stocks go all the way to zero.
  - eloff 4y ago
    And crypto go all the way to zero. I'm not sure what your point is. Companies can go bankrupt. So can coins. That's neither here nor there.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > I'm not sure what your point is. See the bit about the "floor" in your post.
      - eloff 4y ago
        Profits are the floor, as I mentioned. Negative profits in the absence of growth means the floor is 0 and the company may go under. That a stock can go to zero does not mean there's no floor under the price, but it depends on the company as to what that is.
    - chrisco255 4y ago
      Crypto has not gone all the way to zero. It went from $3T mcap to ~$800 billion. Despite over a decade of people predicting Bitcoin would go to zero, it's still $20K+ per BTC. Yes, down from the $68K euphoric highs of 2021, but substantially higher than its average price for most of its history, and on par or better than many stocks have performed this year. Ordinary crypto currencies like BTC & ETH can't go bankrupt. They never had any liabilities to begin with. The majors such as BTC & ETH have deep, global, 24/7 liquidity. If you can find a way to make all the liquidity pools dry up for crypto around the world, I suppose it will go to zero. Good luck with that.
      - eloff 4y ago
        The entire stock market has also not gone to zero. You're comparing apples to oranges. Individual coins have gone to zero, as have individual stocks. It's irrelevant to the argument I made.
- dotnet00 4y ago
  Technically, with crypto there's always the less than legal or privacy oriented stuff. Unless you're expecting all that to suddenly disappear there's still utility to back its value there, even if not to maintain its value at the rather overinflated values cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin have (which are less practical for such purposes compared to say, Monero). Plus, for the value to completely zero out you'd need lots of large organizations who have lots of money (be it ones who've borrowed it or ones who are 'holding' it for others) to not only run out of said money but also be unable to pull in new people with get-rich-quick schemes. Miners and stakers would also need to completely lose trust in cryptocurrency. So, to zero it out, you would need a global economic crisis so large that it educates pretty much every 'sucker' out there, which is pretty unlikely to happen right now.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
It’s nonsense to argue Bitcoin or Ethereum aren’t subject to inflation when their price in dollars has been, at best, flat, while the latter experiences record inflation.
- bb88 4y ago
  I argue that inflation is an increasing lack of purchasing power. We're off roughly a third of the BTC peak last year, so would that not be 300% inflation looking at BTC alone?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > We're off roughly a third of the BTC peak last year, so would that not be 300% inflation looking at BTC alone? Yes. I was trying to be generous.

eloff 4y ago

With stocks, you're purchasing future profits. That puts a floor under things. With crypto you're purchasing??? There's no floor. It has limited utility.

danuker 4y ago
The floor denominated in dollars can still go to zero. The utility of Bitcoin is its global payment network.
- schrodinger 4y ago
  The floor of dollars is the might of the US military. If you haven’t noticed it’s prettttty strong these days.
  - scottiebarnes 4y ago
    The military has the power to stop hyperinflation?
    - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
      Yes. It’s cringe but a war in the right circumstances could stop price growth in the US
  - eloff 4y ago
    I keep hearing this repeated, but the link between military and the strength of the dollar is tenuous at best.
    - micah94 4y ago
      Oil priced in dollars. Countries forced to buy/hold dollars. Country tries to use another currency to buy their oil, they end up like Saddam or Gaddafi c/o the US military.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        Brazil, India, China might be too much for US military. Or at least two of those.
- drnonsense42 4y ago
  But, the floor of profits for a company is not denominated in dollars. It is shit you put in your mouth and eat or a useful product like a refrigerator which you can put things which allow you to not die. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is some electricity, and arguably a waste of it.
  - vba616 4y ago
    >It is shit you put in your mouth and eat /happy gilmore
- this_user 4y ago
  > The utility of Bitcoin is its global payment network. So zero then?
- eloff 4y ago
  No, if dollars suffer hyperinflation, companies are still worth the present value of future cash flows. They'll suffer like everyone else in a tough environment, but they won't go to zero unless the company goes bankrupt. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has next to no utility and no profits. It can go to zero.
legutierr 4y ago
Future profits of a public company can't go to zero? Bankruptcy is a thing, after all. How much are Pan Am, Enron, Lehman Brothers worth today?
WalterBright 4y ago
I've had stocks go all the way to zero.
- eloff 4y ago
  And crypto go all the way to zero. I'm not sure what your point is. Companies can go bankrupt. So can coins. That's neither here nor there.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > I'm not sure what your point is. See the bit about the "floor" in your post.
    - eloff 4y ago
      Profits are the floor, as I mentioned. Negative profits in the absence of growth means the floor is 0 and the company may go under. That a stock can go to zero does not mean there's no floor under the price, but it depends on the company as to what that is.
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    Crypto has not gone all the way to zero. It went from $3T mcap to ~$800 billion. Despite over a decade of people predicting Bitcoin would go to zero, it's still $20K+ per BTC. Yes, down from the $68K euphoric highs of 2021, but substantially higher than its average price for most of its history, and on par or better than many stocks have performed this year. Ordinary crypto currencies like BTC & ETH can't go bankrupt. They never had any liabilities to begin with. The majors such as BTC & ETH have deep, global, 24/7 liquidity. If you can find a way to make all the liquidity pools dry up for crypto around the world, I suppose it will go to zero. Good luck with that.
    - eloff 4y ago
      The entire stock market has also not gone to zero. You're comparing apples to oranges. Individual coins have gone to zero, as have individual stocks. It's irrelevant to the argument I made.
dotnet00 4y ago
Technically, with crypto there's always the less than legal or privacy oriented stuff. Unless you're expecting all that to suddenly disappear there's still utility to back its value there, even if not to maintain its value at the rather overinflated values cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin have (which are less practical for such purposes compared to say, Monero). Plus, for the value to completely zero out you'd need lots of large organizations who have lots of money (be it ones who've borrowed it or ones who are 'holding' it for others) to not only run out of said money but also be unable to pull in new people with get-rich-quick schemes. Miners and stakers would also need to completely lose trust in cryptocurrency. So, to zero it out, you would need a global economic crisis so large that it educates pretty much every 'sucker' out there, which is pretty unlikely to happen right now.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

It’s nonsense to argue Bitcoin or Ethereum aren’t subject to inflation when their price in dollars has been, at best, flat, while the latter experiences record inflation.

bb88 4y ago
I argue that inflation is an increasing lack of purchasing power. We're off roughly a third of the BTC peak last year, so would that not be 300% inflation looking at BTC alone?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > We're off roughly a third of the BTC peak last year, so would that not be 300% inflation looking at BTC alone? Yes. I was trying to be generous.