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Some time ago I saw a presentation from the chaos computer club where an expert on the matter explained there is a lot of misunderstandings about hydrogen techn

Some time ago I saw a presentation from the chaos computer club where an expert on the matter explained there is a lot of misunderstandings about hydrogen technology as an energy source and how is gonna useful for society and why it is necessary. In a nutshell some industries that currently rely on natural gas cannot switch effectively to electricity, hydrogen seems to be the only solution at the moment. Regarding transportation, it seems to be widely accepted that hydrogen is not an efficient solution for small vehicles. There may be some cases where it makes sense (heavy trucks, train locomotives), but overall it doesn't seem like anybody expects hydrogen cars to be mass produced.

vletal 4y ago
What is there problem with small vehicles?
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  EV's are about 3X as efficient turning electricity into motion as hydrogen cars are. Here's a good graphic from Volkswagen laying it out very clearly. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electric-or-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vw-lays-out-why-one-is-the-winner https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electri...
jonwest 4y ago
What about using hydrogen as a generator for an EV like in the Hyundai 74 concept? I’m far from an expert but something like that, at least intuitively, feels like a nice compromise with having portability of fuel, but still allowing for alternative power sources via electricity (like if grid power was sourced via solar, hydro, wind, etc).
- thefounder 4y ago
  Looks like the worst of both worlds at the first glance. However depends by the costs of batteries. In a world with an abundance/excess of green energy but expensive batteries to store it hydrogen makes sense. The conversion of electricity->hydrogen->electricity is quite inneficient so batteries better be cheap enough otherwise we will go the hydrogen way for cars as well.
  - jonwest 4y ago
    I think you’re under the impression that it requires the hydrogen generator? You can use the hydrogen tank if you are without somewhere to charge the vehicle, but you can also just use it as a traditional EV and charge as you normally would.
    - thefounder 4y ago
      Both hydrogen and batteries are energy storage technologies. My point is that it doesn't make sense to use one technology if the other is cheaper. If batteries are too expensive then you would have an electricity -> hydrogen conversion at the power plat/wind farm.
    - rnk 4y ago
      Why not add a gas engine too, for places where you only have gas and not electricity or hydrogen? Because it's unnecessary weight to carry around. Toyota and Japan pushed hydrogen for a long time because their industrial base is so focused on gas/diesel drive trains. Their vast investments and expertise will be worthless as we leave it behind. They've also never made any progress getting away from hydrogen coming from fossil fuels. h is not a great fuel source because it's so much less dense than carbon fuels, you can't get far on one tank. It has two benefits, easy to refuel, and burning it doesn't produce pollution, but the negative of coming from fossil fuels kills it.
- inhumantsar 4y ago
  Fuel cells in the vehicle would be much more efficient. Combustion generators in the car have storage issues and efficiency issues. liquid hydrogen needs cryogenic storage, compressed hydrogen isn't space efficient relative to the output. Combustion generators at home would suffer from the same storage problems as in cars. https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8 https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8
- foobazgt 4y ago
  I don't understand what problems the Hyundai 74 is trying to solve. It has roughly the same stats as a long range model 3 for acceleration and range, but has to carry around both a fuel cell and a 60+ kwh battery (nearly as large as the model 3's). Hydrogen mpge is already terrible (all hydrogen mirai has 75 compared to long range model 3 at 130), and an extra step here is only going to make it worse. Is there something I'm misunderstanding about the vehicle's platform?
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    refill vs recharge
- greenthrow 4y ago
  Hydrogen makes no sense for passenger vehicles. It requires building out a massive infrastructure that doesn't exist and is just far less efficient than storing the elecricity in a battery. Check out this video for more on where Hydrogen does and does not make sense: https://youtu.be/JlOCS95Jvjc https://youtu.be/JlOCS95Jvjc
  - ephbit 4y ago
    Now what happens as soon as there _is indeed_ sufficient H2 refuelling infrastructure for trucks? (Assuming that it will happen for long haul trucks because BEV trucks will not replace diesel powered ones in the long term) Doesn't that make FCEV cars look a lot more convenient than BEV cars?
aaronbrethorst 4y ago
Science writer David Roberts had a long conversation with Rebecca Dell from ClimateWorks about decarbonizing heavy industry back in February. Lots more detail here if that’s of interest to you: https://www.volts.wtf/p/volts-podcast-rebecca-dell-on-decarbonizing#details https://www.volts.wtf/p/volts-podcast-rebecca-dell-on-decarb...
bryanlarsen 4y ago
The best balanced overview of hydrogen's future I've seen has been the Hydrogen Science Coalition: https://h2sciencecoalition.com/principles/ https://h2sciencecoalition.com/principles/ Green hydrogen is desperately required to produce fertilizer cleanly, so it is a problem that must be solved. It also looks very promising in a couple of other industrial processes, like the production of steel. And that's about all we can say with any degree of certainty.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  Why do fertilizer and steel require hydrogen in particular rather than just green-electricity-powered induction heating? Is the hydrogen meant to be a chemical component in the manufacture of fertilizer and steel rather than merely a heat fuel?
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    Fertilizer requires the production of ammonia NH4. That is one nitrogen bonded to 4 hydrogens. The nitrogen can come from the air but the hydrogen has to come from some other compound.
    - jxf 4y ago
      Dumb question: why can't the hydrogen also come from the water vapor in the air?
      - pfdietz 4y ago
        That would be highly endothermic. The energy needed to separate the hydrogen from the water has to come from somewhere. If you meant "why can't we electrolyse that water to get the hydrogen", well yes of course that could be done, and that's what's being talked about (using water from some other source, though; why from the air?) But the water doesn't just decompose on its own.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        You can, but doing so with renewable power would be under the rubric of "solving green hydrogen for industrial processes". In practice it's probably just easier to use renewably powered electrolysis to separate hydrogen and oxygen atoms from liquid water rather than try and use some chemical process to pull them out of the air.
insane_dreamer 4y ago
Is it a suitable option for powering ships?
noogle 4y ago
Batteries needed electric vehicles are still expensive and seem to essentially be the bottleneck for mass change to EV. The infrastructure needed to support battery electric vehicles seem to be expensive/complex to run sufficiently well in practice. In the US Tesla's supercharger network is often cited as a moat against other manufacturers. It's not even building the chargers - it's maintenance and compatibility. Charger network are a losing operation, but they are critical for adoption. Tesla affords this via huge margins, but that won't work for the rest of the market outside of the luxury segment. Could it be that the BEV market (in the US at least) lends itself to monopolization? If so, hydrogen can make sense as a technology that does not rely on losing charger network to operate (just like no car manufacturer needs to subsidize fuel stations).
- bastawhiz 4y ago
  Counterpoint: I can't even refill my damn inkjet without the manufacturer doing their damnedest to get me to pay multiples for what's essentially commodity ink. I have no faith that hydrogen won't work the same.
  - chmod775 4y ago
    There is little political will to regulate printer cartridges. Cars on the other hand are heavily regulated.
    - bastawhiz 4y ago
      The oil industry, I can assure you, would be quick to lobby for little standardization and regulation on hydrogen exactly for the reason they they want it to be in the same sorry state as printer ink
      - fomine3 4y ago
        Don't you see even Tesla Supercharger is opening for all EVs? It won't work.
  - 4y ago
kube-system 4y ago
> misunderstandings about hydrogen technology as an energy source The biggest misconception being that hydrogen is an energy source. We currently do not capture any hydrogen from nature. Almost all industrial hydrogen is currently derived from fossil fuels.

vletal 4y ago

What is there problem with small vehicles?

bryanlarsen 4y ago
EV's are about 3X as efficient turning electricity into motion as hydrogen cars are. Here's a good graphic from Volkswagen laying it out very clearly. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electric-or-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vw-lays-out-why-one-is-the-winner https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electri...

jonwest 4y ago

What about using hydrogen as a generator for an EV like in the Hyundai 74 concept? I’m far from an expert but something like that, at least intuitively, feels like a nice compromise with having portability of fuel, but still allowing for alternative power sources via electricity (like if grid power was sourced via solar, hydro, wind, etc).

thefounder 4y ago
Looks like the worst of both worlds at the first glance. However depends by the costs of batteries. In a world with an abundance/excess of green energy but expensive batteries to store it hydrogen makes sense. The conversion of electricity->hydrogen->electricity is quite inneficient so batteries better be cheap enough otherwise we will go the hydrogen way for cars as well.
- jonwest 4y ago
  I think you’re under the impression that it requires the hydrogen generator? You can use the hydrogen tank if you are without somewhere to charge the vehicle, but you can also just use it as a traditional EV and charge as you normally would.
  - thefounder 4y ago
    Both hydrogen and batteries are energy storage technologies. My point is that it doesn't make sense to use one technology if the other is cheaper. If batteries are too expensive then you would have an electricity -> hydrogen conversion at the power plat/wind farm.
  - rnk 4y ago
    Why not add a gas engine too, for places where you only have gas and not electricity or hydrogen? Because it's unnecessary weight to carry around. Toyota and Japan pushed hydrogen for a long time because their industrial base is so focused on gas/diesel drive trains. Their vast investments and expertise will be worthless as we leave it behind. They've also never made any progress getting away from hydrogen coming from fossil fuels. h is not a great fuel source because it's so much less dense than carbon fuels, you can't get far on one tank. It has two benefits, easy to refuel, and burning it doesn't produce pollution, but the negative of coming from fossil fuels kills it.
inhumantsar 4y ago
Fuel cells in the vehicle would be much more efficient. Combustion generators in the car have storage issues and efficiency issues. liquid hydrogen needs cryogenic storage, compressed hydrogen isn't space efficient relative to the output. Combustion generators at home would suffer from the same storage problems as in cars. https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8 https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8
foobazgt 4y ago
I don't understand what problems the Hyundai 74 is trying to solve. It has roughly the same stats as a long range model 3 for acceleration and range, but has to carry around both a fuel cell and a 60+ kwh battery (nearly as large as the model 3's). Hydrogen mpge is already terrible (all hydrogen mirai has 75 compared to long range model 3 at 130), and an extra step here is only going to make it worse. Is there something I'm misunderstanding about the vehicle's platform?
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  refill vs recharge
greenthrow 4y ago
Hydrogen makes no sense for passenger vehicles. It requires building out a massive infrastructure that doesn't exist and is just far less efficient than storing the elecricity in a battery. Check out this video for more on where Hydrogen does and does not make sense: https://youtu.be/JlOCS95Jvjc https://youtu.be/JlOCS95Jvjc
- ephbit 4y ago
  Now what happens as soon as there _is indeed_ sufficient H2 refuelling infrastructure for trucks? (Assuming that it will happen for long haul trucks because BEV trucks will not replace diesel powered ones in the long term) Doesn't that make FCEV cars look a lot more convenient than BEV cars?

aaronbrethorst 4y ago

Science writer David Roberts had a long conversation with Rebecca Dell from ClimateWorks about decarbonizing heavy industry back in February. Lots more detail here if that’s of interest to you: https://www.volts.wtf/p/volts-podcast-rebecca-dell-on-decarbonizing#details https://www.volts.wtf/p/volts-podcast-rebecca-dell-on-decarb...

bryanlarsen 4y ago

The best balanced overview of hydrogen's future I've seen has been the Hydrogen Science Coalition: https://h2sciencecoalition.com/principles/ https://h2sciencecoalition.com/principles/ Green hydrogen is desperately required to produce fertilizer cleanly, so it is a problem that must be solved. It also looks very promising in a couple of other industrial processes, like the production of steel. And that's about all we can say with any degree of certainty.

throwaway894345 4y ago
Why do fertilizer and steel require hydrogen in particular rather than just green-electricity-powered induction heating? Is the hydrogen meant to be a chemical component in the manufacture of fertilizer and steel rather than merely a heat fuel?
- Tagbert 4y ago
  Fertilizer requires the production of ammonia NH4. That is one nitrogen bonded to 4 hydrogens. The nitrogen can come from the air but the hydrogen has to come from some other compound.
  - jxf 4y ago
    Dumb question: why can't the hydrogen also come from the water vapor in the air?
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      That would be highly endothermic. The energy needed to separate the hydrogen from the water has to come from somewhere. If you meant "why can't we electrolyse that water to get the hydrogen", well yes of course that could be done, and that's what's being talked about (using water from some other source, though; why from the air?) But the water doesn't just decompose on its own.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      You can, but doing so with renewable power would be under the rubric of "solving green hydrogen for industrial processes". In practice it's probably just easier to use renewably powered electrolysis to separate hydrogen and oxygen atoms from liquid water rather than try and use some chemical process to pull them out of the air.

insane_dreamer 4y ago

Is it a suitable option for powering ships?

noogle 4y ago

Batteries needed electric vehicles are still expensive and seem to essentially be the bottleneck for mass change to EV. The infrastructure needed to support battery electric vehicles seem to be expensive/complex to run sufficiently well in practice. In the US Tesla's supercharger network is often cited as a moat against other manufacturers. It's not even building the chargers - it's maintenance and compatibility. Charger network are a losing operation, but they are critical for adoption. Tesla affords this via huge margins, but that won't work for the rest of the market outside of the luxury segment. Could it be that the BEV market (in the US at least) lends itself to monopolization? If so, hydrogen can make sense as a technology that does not rely on losing charger network to operate (just like no car manufacturer needs to subsidize fuel stations).

bastawhiz 4y ago
Counterpoint: I can't even refill my damn inkjet without the manufacturer doing their damnedest to get me to pay multiples for what's essentially commodity ink. I have no faith that hydrogen won't work the same.
- chmod775 4y ago
  There is little political will to regulate printer cartridges. Cars on the other hand are heavily regulated.
  - bastawhiz 4y ago
    The oil industry, I can assure you, would be quick to lobby for little standardization and regulation on hydrogen exactly for the reason they they want it to be in the same sorry state as printer ink
    - fomine3 4y ago
      Don't you see even Tesla Supercharger is opening for all EVs? It won't work.
- 4y ago

kube-system 4y ago

> misunderstandings about hydrogen technology as an energy source The biggest misconception being that hydrogen is an energy source. We currently do not capture any hydrogen from nature. Almost all industrial hydrogen is currently derived from fossil fuels.