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> The Internet would have us believe that civil war is imminent. The person who could arguably be considered the third most powerful politician in the US just

> The Internet would have us believe that civil war is imminent. The person who could arguably be considered the third most powerful politician in the US just had their own broken into and their spouse assaulted in a suspected act of domestic terrorism. I wouldn't say "imminent" but if you don't think the possibility is at least somewhere on the table I would consider that being naive.

UncleOxidant 4y ago
And you've got MAGA "prophets" out there "prophesying" about the "Angel of Death" visiting their political opponents before the end of 2022.
- norwalkbear 4y ago
  Wtf, pls go on
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-rally-warns-lindsey-graham-top-dems-face-death-years-end-1754069 https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-rally-warns-lindsey-graha...
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  And you have Bernie supporters shooting up GOP softball games, democrats setting fire to court houses, and radical groups running over Christmas parades attendees because they were white. Still not as bad or unstable as the 1960s.
  - jsterSC 4y ago
    You have GOP party members actively supporting a coup. And intend to do so again. Worse than the 1960s.
  - acdha 4y ago
    There’s a key difference: Darrell Brooks didn’t launch his attack for Democratic goals and no Democrat supports his actions. The protesters in Portland did not have the support of Democratic leaders and tended to criticize them almost as heavily they do Republicans. James Hodgkinson was definitely a leftist but his actions got immediate and complete rejection from Democratic leaders, including Bernie Sanders unequivocal condemnation. Contrast this with the way Republican politicians and media are hesitant to condemn the January 6th attack or cross Trump on almost any topic, and calls for political violence have been the subject of jokes and outright support from leaders & candidates for years. Those topics poll favorably with far too many Republicans to consider them fringe issues. That’s scary for anyone who believes in fair elections or the rule of law because, as we’ve seen, those people feel emboldened and are expanding. There are a large number of election deniers running for office this year and they’re all members of one party, with almost no internal pushback.
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      Now do all the crazy shit that democrats were saying during the "mostly peaceful" BLM riots that did $2,000,000,000 in damage, hurt thousands of cops, hurts thousands of civilians, destroyed thousands of buildings, tens of thousands of cars, and wrecked thousands of American lives - many of them the minorities that BLM claim to support - even though they spent millions on questions "jobs" for family members and millions more on lavish mansions. All of the prominent democrats were behind the BLM violence 100%. Even our VP was bailing out bad actors who would just end up getting arrested again. Ah election deniers... Like: Joe Biden, 2019: “I absolutely” agree that Trump is an “illegitimate president.” Hillary Clinton, 2019: The election was “stolen.” Jimmy Carter, 2019: “Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016. He lost the election and was put into office because the Russians interference on his behalf.” Kamala Harris, 2019: “Absolutely right” that Trump “didn’t really win.” Karine Jean-Pierre, 2016: It was a “stolen election.” Jerry Nadler, 2017: It was a “tainted” and “illegitimate” election.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
I really don't think there's a straight line from this kind of lone-wolf domestic terrorism to civil war. A civil war happens when people who aren't mentally unstable, normal people just like you and I, decide that suchandsuch political objective is so important that our fellow citizens have to be shot in order to achieve it. If that seems like a crazy idea to you (it certianly does to me!) then a civil war isn't yet on the table. A period of severe unrest like we had in the 60s? That's definitely a possibility.
- hedora 4y ago
  It's not lone wolf terrorism though, it's an organized + well funded movement to end US democracy. They control a bit over 50% of the Republican party, and a growing percentage of the courts (including the supreme court). Heck; Biden is would be considered right wing in most developing countries, and here's his take: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/09/01/remarks-by-president-bidenon-the-continued-battle-for-the-soul-of-the-nation/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... > Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. Now, I want to be very clear — (applause) — very clear up front: Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans. But there is no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and that is a threat to this country. These are hard things. But I’m an American President — not the President of red America or blue America, but of all America. And I believe it is my duty — my duty to level with you, to tell the truth no matter how difficult, no matter how painful. And here, in my view, is what is true: MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people. They refuse to accept the results of a free election. And they’re working right now, as I speak, in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself. (Sept 1, 2022)
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
rootusrootus 4y ago
I don't want to call it insignificant, but the US has a long history of more significant political violence that did not signal impending civil war. With a nation of 330M people, there are going to be a rather large number (in absolute numbers) that are unhinged. If anything, it's kind of amazing that the combination of a large population, low regulation, and easy access to firearms hasn't resulted in more violence than it has.
retrac 4y ago
In 2020 in Ottawa, a man rammed through the gates of the Prime Minister's residence with a vehicle. He was in body armour and carrying multiple firearms. He claims he just wanted to meet with the PM, who thankfully wasn't home at the time. Is Canada on the verge of civil war? Multiple US presidents have been assassinated! Political violence is shocking but not actually so rare that we should latch on to any specific incident with particular meaning. It's particularly meaningless when it is the act of a single person who is somewhat deranged. If an organized group takes out a politician or other official, and this act had some support with the public, then we should start worrying.
- rossjudson 4y ago
  In Arizona, bands of visibly-armed thugs are parking themselves around mail-in voting points taking videos and pictures...and even following people in their cars to see where they go. There's a 75 foot distance law, but that doesn't mean much. What happens if the also-armed liberals get sick of this crap, and the confrontations escalate? It's not civil war, but it can lead to ugly conflicts.
- vkou 4y ago
  > Is Canada on the verge of civil war? So, the difference between the two countries is that this viewpoint in Canada is a fringe one, while in the United States, it enjoys popular support among mainstream politicians and media. Oh, they don't directly endorse violence, but they are very happy to call for someone to 'remove this turbulent priest'. That's the difference between fringe lunacy (present in every country, shit happens, you deal with it and move on), and the peaceful political process unraveling. Just a reminder - one of the presidential candidates in the past two elections has yet to concede that he lost the popular vote in 2016, as well as the popular vote and the electoral college in 2020[1]. This sort of insanity is so far beyond the political pale in Canada, I can't even envision it. [1] My state's gubernatorial candidate has also yet to concede that he lost 43-56 in 2020. Why even have elections if the losers don't accept the results?
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    Also a reminder - a left-wing nut shot Scalise during a baseball game. Rand Paul was attacked at his home and had his ribs broken. There was an assassination plot against a conservative-leaning Supreme Court justice. The right does not own the monopoly on violent nutjobs among their ranks. Sadly, they exist everywhere, left, right, and center.
twblalock 4y ago
American society was far closer to breaking down in 1968 than it is today. Riots in multiple cities, political assassinations, the polarization over the war in Vietnam, violence in the south over segregation and civil rights, crime waves in most large cities, and urban decay that was so bad people don't believe it when they see the photos today...
- acdha 4y ago
  There's merit in that comparison but there was nothing like an armed group storming the Capitol with a goal of preventing a fair and honest election. What makes the civil war questions more worrisome to me is how bare-knuckle politics has become so accepted by mainstream Republicans: when Nixon's misconduct came out, his party support eventually declined and had he not resigned, most members of his party would almost certainly have voted for impeachment. Today we're seeing the results of a generation of ideological purges where more significant acts have been met instead with near-unanimous agreement to hold the line and the few dissenters have been evicted from the party.
MrMan 4y ago
I just read about this, its crazy. "diverse" viewpoints indeed

UncleOxidant 4y ago

And you've got MAGA "prophets" out there "prophesying" about the "Angel of Death" visiting their political opponents before the end of 2022.

norwalkbear 4y ago
Wtf, pls go on
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-rally-warns-lindsey-graham-top-dems-face-death-years-end-1754069 https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-rally-warns-lindsey-graha...
PM_me_your_math 4y ago
And you have Bernie supporters shooting up GOP softball games, democrats setting fire to court houses, and radical groups running over Christmas parades attendees because they were white. Still not as bad or unstable as the 1960s.
- jsterSC 4y ago
  You have GOP party members actively supporting a coup. And intend to do so again. Worse than the 1960s.
- acdha 4y ago
  There’s a key difference: Darrell Brooks didn’t launch his attack for Democratic goals and no Democrat supports his actions. The protesters in Portland did not have the support of Democratic leaders and tended to criticize them almost as heavily they do Republicans. James Hodgkinson was definitely a leftist but his actions got immediate and complete rejection from Democratic leaders, including Bernie Sanders unequivocal condemnation. Contrast this with the way Republican politicians and media are hesitant to condemn the January 6th attack or cross Trump on almost any topic, and calls for political violence have been the subject of jokes and outright support from leaders & candidates for years. Those topics poll favorably with far too many Republicans to consider them fringe issues. That’s scary for anyone who believes in fair elections or the rule of law because, as we’ve seen, those people feel emboldened and are expanding. There are a large number of election deniers running for office this year and they’re all members of one party, with almost no internal pushback.
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    Now do all the crazy shit that democrats were saying during the "mostly peaceful" BLM riots that did $2,000,000,000 in damage, hurt thousands of cops, hurts thousands of civilians, destroyed thousands of buildings, tens of thousands of cars, and wrecked thousands of American lives - many of them the minorities that BLM claim to support - even though they spent millions on questions "jobs" for family members and millions more on lavish mansions. All of the prominent democrats were behind the BLM violence 100%. Even our VP was bailing out bad actors who would just end up getting arrested again. Ah election deniers... Like: Joe Biden, 2019: “I absolutely” agree that Trump is an “illegitimate president.” Hillary Clinton, 2019: The election was “stolen.” Jimmy Carter, 2019: “Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016. He lost the election and was put into office because the Russians interference on his behalf.” Kamala Harris, 2019: “Absolutely right” that Trump “didn’t really win.” Karine Jean-Pierre, 2016: It was a “stolen election.” Jerry Nadler, 2017: It was a “tainted” and “illegitimate” election.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

I really don't think there's a straight line from this kind of lone-wolf domestic terrorism to civil war. A civil war happens when people who aren't mentally unstable, normal people just like you and I, decide that suchandsuch political objective is so important that our fellow citizens have to be shot in order to achieve it. If that seems like a crazy idea to you (it certianly does to me!) then a civil war isn't yet on the table. A period of severe unrest like we had in the 60s? That's definitely a possibility.

hedora 4y ago
It's not lone wolf terrorism though, it's an organized + well funded movement to end US democracy. They control a bit over 50% of the Republican party, and a growing percentage of the courts (including the supreme court). Heck; Biden is would be considered right wing in most developing countries, and here's his take: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/09/01/remarks-by-president-bidenon-the-continued-battle-for-the-soul-of-the-nation/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... > Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. Now, I want to be very clear — (applause) — very clear up front: Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans. But there is no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and that is a threat to this country. These are hard things. But I’m an American President — not the President of red America or blue America, but of all America. And I believe it is my duty — my duty to level with you, to tell the truth no matter how difficult, no matter how painful. And here, in my view, is what is true: MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people. They refuse to accept the results of a free election. And they’re working right now, as I speak, in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself. (Sept 1, 2022)
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

rootusrootus 4y ago

I don't want to call it insignificant, but the US has a long history of more significant political violence that did not signal impending civil war. With a nation of 330M people, there are going to be a rather large number (in absolute numbers) that are unhinged. If anything, it's kind of amazing that the combination of a large population, low regulation, and easy access to firearms hasn't resulted in more violence than it has.

retrac 4y ago

In 2020 in Ottawa, a man rammed through the gates of the Prime Minister's residence with a vehicle. He was in body armour and carrying multiple firearms. He claims he just wanted to meet with the PM, who thankfully wasn't home at the time. Is Canada on the verge of civil war? Multiple US presidents have been assassinated! Political violence is shocking but not actually so rare that we should latch on to any specific incident with particular meaning. It's particularly meaningless when it is the act of a single person who is somewhat deranged. If an organized group takes out a politician or other official, and this act had some support with the public, then we should start worrying.

rossjudson 4y ago
In Arizona, bands of visibly-armed thugs are parking themselves around mail-in voting points taking videos and pictures...and even following people in their cars to see where they go. There's a 75 foot distance law, but that doesn't mean much. What happens if the also-armed liberals get sick of this crap, and the confrontations escalate? It's not civil war, but it can lead to ugly conflicts.
vkou 4y ago
> Is Canada on the verge of civil war? So, the difference between the two countries is that this viewpoint in Canada is a fringe one, while in the United States, it enjoys popular support among mainstream politicians and media. Oh, they don't directly endorse violence, but they are very happy to call for someone to 'remove this turbulent priest'. That's the difference between fringe lunacy (present in every country, shit happens, you deal with it and move on), and the peaceful political process unraveling. Just a reminder - one of the presidential candidates in the past two elections has yet to concede that he lost the popular vote in 2016, as well as the popular vote and the electoral college in 2020[1]. This sort of insanity is so far beyond the political pale in Canada, I can't even envision it. [1] My state's gubernatorial candidate has also yet to concede that he lost 43-56 in 2020. Why even have elections if the losers don't accept the results?
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Also a reminder - a left-wing nut shot Scalise during a baseball game. Rand Paul was attacked at his home and had his ribs broken. There was an assassination plot against a conservative-leaning Supreme Court justice. The right does not own the monopoly on violent nutjobs among their ranks. Sadly, they exist everywhere, left, right, and center.

twblalock 4y ago

American society was far closer to breaking down in 1968 than it is today. Riots in multiple cities, political assassinations, the polarization over the war in Vietnam, violence in the south over segregation and civil rights, crime waves in most large cities, and urban decay that was so bad people don't believe it when they see the photos today...

acdha 4y ago
There's merit in that comparison but there was nothing like an armed group storming the Capitol with a goal of preventing a fair and honest election. What makes the civil war questions more worrisome to me is how bare-knuckle politics has become so accepted by mainstream Republicans: when Nixon's misconduct came out, his party support eventually declined and had he not resigned, most members of his party would almost certainly have voted for impeachment. Today we're seeing the results of a generation of ideological purges where more significant acts have been met instead with near-unanimous agreement to hold the line and the few dissenters have been evicted from the party.

MrMan 4y ago

I just read about this, its crazy. "diverse" viewpoints indeed