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The same happened in CA with some stores being open and others closed. Why was Home Depot open? It made no sense in terms of spreading the disease . It was

The same happened in CA with some stores being open and others closed. Why was Home Depot open? It made no sense in terms of spreading the disease . It was just arbitrary BS. Closing the beaches was stupid too. If there ever was a safe place then it was the beach or state park wheee uou are in the open and the window blows.

throwawaylinux 4y ago
People were rabidly cheering it on too. Police going around shutting playgrounds and arresting parents for playing outdoors with their children, while at the same time the politicians they voted for were constantly and egregiously shown to be flouting the rules on frivolities, parties, travel, fun. And there were excuses for the politicians and bloodlust for the commoner trying to exercise or raise their child. Absolutely flabbergasting. I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it. Covid has been a really amazing learning experience for me.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    > Citation? This seems like an anti-mandate talking point more than a reality. This isn't in good faith so it's clearly not going to change your opinion about anything. It's trivial to google and it was not an uncommon story in the news over the past few years. Literally the top google result of my first trivial search: https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officer-arrested-park-throwing-ball-daughter-due/story?id=70032966 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officer-arrested-park-throw... > January 6th? Also a bad faith non-sequitur. If you have any actual coherent and rational questions or comments about what I wrote, I am more than happy to talk about it. Sadly you don't appear to be intellectually equipped to cope with pondering these issues though.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  “I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it” That’s how the US has worked for a long time. See the war on drugs and mass incarceration, laws against black people and extreme political polarization. There was always a group of “others” that people wanted to get punished. I bet if Trump had been a little smarter he would have got away with a lot more while people cheering him on. But it seems a lot of political institutions are eroding so maybe the next strongman will be able to go way further.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    Yes that seems to be how it goes. Drum up irrational fear, lay the blame at the others, create hatred against them, then it becomes almost a self-sustaining mass psychosis. Intellectually I understood that's basically how it works, I guess I just didn't want to believe it. People didn't care that vaccines didn't stop the virus spreading, they didn't care that insignificant transmission occurred due to individuals or small family groups enjoying the outdoors, they didn't care that some people were as irrationally scared of the vaccines as they were of covid. It wasn't about any kind of measured response designed for the real greater good. They wanted to see those hated others suffer and be punished for their heresy and audacity.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Is fear of dying irrational? I mean, it's going to happen to us all anyway, so does it matter if it's via airborne virus or whatever it is that conservatives fear is going to kill them?
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        Fear of dying of covid because someone is taking their child to play in a park certainly is.
        hotpotamus 4y ago
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  > fun. Its an amazingly corrupting kind of power, the ability to dictate the way others can have fun.
- scatters 4y ago
  You've got cause and effect backwards. Societies have to overreact to pandemics, because those that didn't got wiped out - eventually. Enforcement of quarantine and similar measures through extreme social norms is a necessary adaptation to the threat of plague; civilization wouldn't be able to exist without it.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    No I don't think I do have it backward.
    - scatters 4y ago
      What was the point of writing that?
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        It was commensurate with your reply. What exactly is the cause and what is the effect that you think I have backwards?
        scatters 4y ago
        You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division. I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated.
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        > You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division. They do and have done so many times throughout history. > I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated. Fear is an instinctive response to many things, and that can be and is manipulated.
thatguy0900 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cYPm__73XI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cYPm__73XI I still remember this video that was widely circulated. The bans were never more than politicians wanting to look like they were doing something.
triceratops 4y ago
Home Depot was open because people need to fix shit around their house if you want them to stay home. What's arbitrary about that? I agree with you about the beaches. But in the early days, we didn't really know what worked and what didn't. People said 6 feet apart was safe enough indoors because "droplets containing the virus fall to the ground".
- db48x 4y ago
  It was arbitrary because small hardware stores had to close, while big ones could stay open. Also, because in most states someone in the governor’s office just went down a random list of professions or business types and decided on the spot whether to shut them down or not. That’s the very definition of arbitrary and capricious. It also fails the rational basis test, since the government hadn’t even come up with a rationale for why certain businesses have to close while others can stay open. Or why a Walmart could have a 500 people in it, while churches were limited to 10 people at a time (regardless of the size of the church’s building, even), etc.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Then why?
    - db48x 4y ago
      Then why what? Can you elaborate a bit?
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Sorry, why would he do this? If he wasn't doing it thinking it would help then what?
        db48x 4y ago
        I’m not sure which person you are referring to, but it doesn’t matter if someone thought it would help. That’s not sufficient. The rules vary somewhat from state to state, but in general a government order must be narrowly tailored to serve a legitimate government interest, there must be a rational basis for how the order will actually serve that interest, and it must not be arbitrary or capricious. It has to have all three or it’s out. Notably, “I thought it would help” isn’t quite on the list. If you can explain why something might help, then that could form your argument for the rational basis test (although it would be better if you could explain how it _will_ help, rather than how it _might_ help). But the order had better meet all the other requirements as well. There are often other requirements as well. The agency writing the order must have the explicit authority to do so. Some types of orders are limited ahead of time by legislation. For example, many states have a written maximum amount of time that any order based on a state of emergency can last. Etc, etc.

throwawaylinux 4y ago

People were rabidly cheering it on too. Police going around shutting playgrounds and arresting parents for playing outdoors with their children, while at the same time the politicians they voted for were constantly and egregiously shown to be flouting the rules on frivolities, parties, travel, fun. And there were excuses for the politicians and bloodlust for the commoner trying to exercise or raise their child. Absolutely flabbergasting. I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it. Covid has been a really amazing learning experience for me.

vineyardmike 4y ago
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  > Citation? This seems like an anti-mandate talking point more than a reality. This isn't in good faith so it's clearly not going to change your opinion about anything. It's trivial to google and it was not an uncommon story in the news over the past few years. Literally the top google result of my first trivial search: https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officer-arrested-park-throwing-ball-daughter-due/story?id=70032966 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officer-arrested-park-throw... > January 6th? Also a bad faith non-sequitur. If you have any actual coherent and rational questions or comments about what I wrote, I am more than happy to talk about it. Sadly you don't appear to be intellectually equipped to cope with pondering these issues though.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
“I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it” That’s how the US has worked for a long time. See the war on drugs and mass incarceration, laws against black people and extreme political polarization. There was always a group of “others” that people wanted to get punished. I bet if Trump had been a little smarter he would have got away with a lot more while people cheering him on. But it seems a lot of political institutions are eroding so maybe the next strongman will be able to go way further.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  Yes that seems to be how it goes. Drum up irrational fear, lay the blame at the others, create hatred against them, then it becomes almost a self-sustaining mass psychosis. Intellectually I understood that's basically how it works, I guess I just didn't want to believe it. People didn't care that vaccines didn't stop the virus spreading, they didn't care that insignificant transmission occurred due to individuals or small family groups enjoying the outdoors, they didn't care that some people were as irrationally scared of the vaccines as they were of covid. It wasn't about any kind of measured response designed for the real greater good. They wanted to see those hated others suffer and be punished for their heresy and audacity.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Is fear of dying irrational? I mean, it's going to happen to us all anyway, so does it matter if it's via airborne virus or whatever it is that conservatives fear is going to kill them?
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      Fear of dying of covid because someone is taking their child to play in a park certainly is.
      - hotpotamus 4y ago
tinus_hn 4y ago
> fun. Its an amazingly corrupting kind of power, the ability to dictate the way others can have fun.
scatters 4y ago
You've got cause and effect backwards. Societies have to overreact to pandemics, because those that didn't got wiped out - eventually. Enforcement of quarantine and similar measures through extreme social norms is a necessary adaptation to the threat of plague; civilization wouldn't be able to exist without it.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  No I don't think I do have it backward.
  - scatters 4y ago
    What was the point of writing that?
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      It was commensurate with your reply. What exactly is the cause and what is the effect that you think I have backwards?
      - scatters 4y ago
        You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division. I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated.
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        > You think that the authorities are creating an internal enemy to sow division. They do and have done so many times throughout history. > I am saying that the visceral reaction to plague is an instinctive human universal, not something that has to be cultivated. Fear is an instinctive response to many things, and that can be and is manipulated.

thatguy0900 4y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cYPm__73XI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cYPm__73XI I still remember this video that was widely circulated. The bans were never more than politicians wanting to look like they were doing something.

triceratops 4y ago

Home Depot was open because people need to fix shit around their house if you want them to stay home. What's arbitrary about that? I agree with you about the beaches. But in the early days, we didn't really know what worked and what didn't. People said 6 feet apart was safe enough indoors because "droplets containing the virus fall to the ground".

db48x 4y ago
It was arbitrary because small hardware stores had to close, while big ones could stay open. Also, because in most states someone in the governor’s office just went down a random list of professions or business types and decided on the spot whether to shut them down or not. That’s the very definition of arbitrary and capricious. It also fails the rational basis test, since the government hadn’t even come up with a rationale for why certain businesses have to close while others can stay open. Or why a Walmart could have a 500 people in it, while churches were limited to 10 people at a time (regardless of the size of the church’s building, even), etc.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Then why?
  - db48x 4y ago
    Then why what? Can you elaborate a bit?
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Sorry, why would he do this? If he wasn't doing it thinking it would help then what?
      - db48x 4y ago
        I’m not sure which person you are referring to, but it doesn’t matter if someone thought it would help. That’s not sufficient. The rules vary somewhat from state to state, but in general a government order must be narrowly tailored to serve a legitimate government interest, there must be a rational basis for how the order will actually serve that interest, and it must not be arbitrary or capricious. It has to have all three or it’s out. Notably, “I thought it would help” isn’t quite on the list. If you can explain why something might help, then that could form your argument for the rational basis test (although it would be better if you could explain how it _will_ help, rather than how it _might_ help). But the order had better meet all the other requirements as well. There are often other requirements as well. The agency writing the order must have the explicit authority to do so. Some types of orders are limited ahead of time by legislation. For example, many states have a written maximum amount of time that any order based on a state of emergency can last. Etc, etc.