7 ms·

Why would it make sense to exempt those people but not, say, firefighters?

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
It doesn't, that's the point. The mandate presumably would have been legal if Adams hadn't added those arbitrary exemptions.
- busymom0 4y ago
  Doubt it. The court also said the following (court towards the end indicates that the mandate didn’t make sense even when the order was issued): > “”Being vaccinated does not prevent an individual from contracting or transmitting Covid-19. As of the day of this Decision, CDC guidelines regarding quarantine and isolation are the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. The Petitioners should not have been terminated for choosing not to protect themselves. We have learned through the course of the pandemic that the vaccine against Covid-19 is not absolute. Breakthrough cases occur, even for those who have been vaccinated and boosted. President Joseph Biden has said that the pandemic is over.& The State of New York ended the Covid-19 state of emergency over a month ago.? As this Court stated in its decision in the Rivicci matter, this is not a commentary on the efficacy of vaccination, but about how we are treating our first responders, the ones who worked day-to-day through the height of the pandemic. See Rivicci v. NYC Fire Dept., Index No. 85131/2022. They worked without protective gear. They were infected with Covid-19, creating natural immunity. They continued working full duty while their exemption requests were pending. They were terminated and are willing to come back to work for the City that cast them aside. The vaccination mandate for City employees was not just about safety and public health: it was about compliance. If it was about safety and public health, unvaccinated workers would have been placed on leave the moment the order was issued. If it was about safety and public health, the Health Commissioner would have issued city-wide mandates for vaccination for all residents. In a City with a nearly 80% vaccination rate, we shouldn't be penalizing the people who showed up to work, at great risk to themselves and their families, while we were locked down. If it was about safety and public health, no one would be exempt. It is time for the City of New York to do what is right and what is just.” Source: https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=JK5E3gx5XV1/ku37jnWR_PLUS_w==&system=prod&TSPD_101_R0=08533cd43fab2000a714a7fbca6ed5d92c9e780c98ea524c4b9b8701764b487905955c017542ac48080139dd47144800dda62d59b1ba02692121c6b4f86f53b4130e01eca4d9e4b1c8054784ce120d336736ccac0abbaf37b8d4ad9aa7103ddbd641ea04a53032d77d7903f1ad7a1b06abd1dac1cfde96f2 https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet...
  - version_five 4y ago
    - nomel 4y ago
      From the HN guidelines: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. The better interpretation is that they have a misunderstanding, which could very well have been corrected already by the above replies.
    - brigandish 4y ago
      I'm getting a bit tired of people on HN questioning the motives of other commenters. You don't have a mind reading machine, you are not a telepath or a wizard. If you think they are wrong then argue it, they could be mistaken, entirely right, entirely wrong, partly right/wrong… you could be wrong. There are so many possibilities but none of them include you being able to divine their intentions.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - jquery 4y ago
    Yikes. This reads like a gish-gallop of anti-vax talking points. I don’t even necessarily disagree with the decision to reinstate the employees, but this legal reasoning is embarrassing. Edit: I’m happy to learn that the New York Supreme Court is not the highest court in New York, this entire thread is misleading (I think people are assuming New York’s highest court slapped down vaccine mandates). I don’t know why New York has to name their courts in such weird ways…
    - tlogan 4y ago
      I think it is important to understand that not all people who against vax mandates are anti-vaxers.
tedunangst 4y ago
Kyrie Irving isn't a firefighter.
- the-printer 4y ago
- rrdharan 4y ago
  No, he a chimney since he gets swept
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    In Cleveland we still call him the bus driver
cantSpellSober 4y ago
The argument at the time was that it was "creating a double standard that disadvantaged local artists and athletes" compared to performers that were not residents of NYC (but commuted in for work). https://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/153-22/transcript-mayor-eric-adams-makes-economic-health-related-announcement https://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/153-22/transcr...
- neither_color 4y ago
  Stuff like this and allowing certain events while vilifying others as "superspreader events" killed a lot of people's belief in mitigation strategies IMO. A virus is a virus and doesn't recognize human needs or wants. Either there are no exceptions for anyone or we shouldn't bother.
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
    The same happened in CA with some stores being open and others closed. Why was Home Depot open? It made no sense in terms of spreading the disease . It was just arbitrary BS. Closing the beaches was stupid too. If there ever was a safe place then it was the beach or state park wheee uou are in the open and the window blows.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      People were rabidly cheering it on too. Police going around shutting playgrounds and arresting parents for playing outdoors with their children, while at the same time the politicians they voted for were constantly and egregiously shown to be flouting the rules on frivolities, parties, travel, fun. And there were excuses for the politicians and bloodlust for the commoner trying to exercise or raise their child. Absolutely flabbergasting. I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it. Covid has been a really amazing learning experience for me.
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
CobrastanJorji 4y ago
You could probably make a pretty good argument. A firefighter deals closely with the population in non-voluntary situations. An athlete or performer is likely quite a bit separated from the crowd watching them, and they're choosing to be there anyway. I don't know if there was actually an attempt to justify the decision, though. And I imagine someone could also make a pretty good argument in the other direction. A firefighter is probably going to be wearing a mask. Performers by their nature are yelling into a crowded indoor space.
jesuscript 4y ago
Because it doesn’t matter who has Covid in a fire.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  Dunno how it is in NY, but in my city, the fire department spends way more time on paramedic duties than on actually fighting fires (around 40 EMS calls for every fire call). IMO if you're getting a ride to the hospital from someone it matters if they have COVID. And even though the vaccines don't guarantee that you won't get infected, the government does have an interest in preventing severe infections. COVID was the #1 killer of first responders
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > the fire department spends way more time on paramedic duties than on actually fighting fires Why does the fire department do medical stuff in the US? Why isn’t it medical people providing paramedics? Seems like something that should be left to professionals?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      What makes you think the fire department's medical staff aren't professionals? My city FD has 148 EMTs and 88 paramedics and are assigned to every station and unit in the city.
    - pc86 4y ago
      Most common example is probably motor vehicle accidents where firefighters (in concert with police officers) will secure the scene, gain access to the vehicle(s) if necessary, etc. A lot of firefighters are also EMTs and paramedics. Both because in places with volunteer firefighters they can just work as EMS, and also because there's quite a bit of overlap in that if you need a firefighter there's a decent chance having EMS around would be beneficial as well. Firefighters who aren't trained in EMS are not providing medical care, so saying "leave it to the professionals" is pretty dismissive in this context.
colinmhayes 4y ago
Because athletes and performers are irreplaceable and bring in tourist revenue which the city wants. Firefighters are more easily replaceable and have no effect on tourism. Having competing priorities is common enough, I don't see what doesn't make sense here. The city wants everyone to be vaccinated but it also wants broadway and basketball to be happening more, so they came up with this policy.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  Why do firefighters have no effect on tourism? Without them you can not run a city. Same for many other jobs like garbage collection.
  - sky_rw 4y ago
    Well clearly there is an elite class to whom body autonomy is granted, and an underclass who must follow arbitrary and capricious rules. OP appreciates that celebrities and entertainers are our betters and should not be held to the same standard.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      An attitude which I've found to be curiously pervasive amongst self-proclaimed egalitarians and socialists.
      - VagueMag 4y ago
        FWIW, there was a vocal contingent of Marxists on Twitter who saw the mandates for the erosion of worker power and rights that they were, and vigorously opposed them. Richard Wolff even came around eventually, as well as Jimmy Dore after having his own personal run-in with the nasty side effects which are all too common with these vaccines. Sadly, though, some of the most awful scapegoaters of the unvaccinated were indeed on the "left." Noam Chomsky even said they should be excluded from society completely, and if that meant they couldn't even obtain food, well, that would be their problem.
whiddershins 4y ago
because they travel into the state from elsewhere to work.

It doesn't, that's the point. The mandate presumably would have been legal if Adams hadn't added those arbitrary exemptions.

busymom0 4y ago
Doubt it. The court also said the following (court towards the end indicates that the mandate didn’t make sense even when the order was issued): > “”Being vaccinated does not prevent an individual from contracting or transmitting Covid-19. As of the day of this Decision, CDC guidelines regarding quarantine and isolation are the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. The Petitioners should not have been terminated for choosing not to protect themselves. We have learned through the course of the pandemic that the vaccine against Covid-19 is not absolute. Breakthrough cases occur, even for those who have been vaccinated and boosted. President Joseph Biden has said that the pandemic is over.& The State of New York ended the Covid-19 state of emergency over a month ago.? As this Court stated in its decision in the Rivicci matter, this is not a commentary on the efficacy of vaccination, but about how we are treating our first responders, the ones who worked day-to-day through the height of the pandemic. See Rivicci v. NYC Fire Dept., Index No. 85131/2022. They worked without protective gear. They were infected with Covid-19, creating natural immunity. They continued working full duty while their exemption requests were pending. They were terminated and are willing to come back to work for the City that cast them aside. The vaccination mandate for City employees was not just about safety and public health: it was about compliance. If it was about safety and public health, unvaccinated workers would have been placed on leave the moment the order was issued. If it was about safety and public health, the Health Commissioner would have issued city-wide mandates for vaccination for all residents. In a City with a nearly 80% vaccination rate, we shouldn't be penalizing the people who showed up to work, at great risk to themselves and their families, while we were locked down. If it was about safety and public health, no one would be exempt. It is time for the City of New York to do what is right and what is just.” Source: https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=JK5E3gx5XV1/ku37jnWR_PLUS_w==&system=prod&TSPD_101_R0=08533cd43fab2000a714a7fbca6ed5d92c9e780c98ea524c4b9b8701764b487905955c017542ac48080139dd47144800dda62d59b1ba02692121c6b4f86f53b4130e01eca4d9e4b1c8054784ce120d336736ccac0abbaf37b8d4ad9aa7103ddbd641ea04a53032d77d7903f1ad7a1b06abd1dac1cfde96f2 https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet...
- version_five 4y ago
  - nomel 4y ago
    From the HN guidelines: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. The better interpretation is that they have a misunderstanding, which could very well have been corrected already by the above replies.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    I'm getting a bit tired of people on HN questioning the motives of other commenters. You don't have a mind reading machine, you are not a telepath or a wizard. If you think they are wrong then argue it, they could be mistaken, entirely right, entirely wrong, partly right/wrong… you could be wrong. There are so many possibilities but none of them include you being able to divine their intentions.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- jquery 4y ago
  Yikes. This reads like a gish-gallop of anti-vax talking points. I don’t even necessarily disagree with the decision to reinstate the employees, but this legal reasoning is embarrassing. Edit: I’m happy to learn that the New York Supreme Court is not the highest court in New York, this entire thread is misleading (I think people are assuming New York’s highest court slapped down vaccine mandates). I don’t know why New York has to name their courts in such weird ways…
  - tlogan 4y ago
    I think it is important to understand that not all people who against vax mandates are anti-vaxers.

tedunangst 4y ago

Kyrie Irving isn't a firefighter.

the-printer 4y ago
rrdharan 4y ago
No, he a chimney since he gets swept
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  In Cleveland we still call him the bus driver

cantSpellSober 4y ago

The argument at the time was that it was "creating a double standard that disadvantaged local artists and athletes" compared to performers that were not residents of NYC (but commuted in for work). https://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/153-22/transcript-mayor-eric-adams-makes-economic-health-related-announcement https://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/153-22/transcr...

neither_color 4y ago
Stuff like this and allowing certain events while vilifying others as "superspreader events" killed a lot of people's belief in mitigation strategies IMO. A virus is a virus and doesn't recognize human needs or wants. Either there are no exceptions for anyone or we shouldn't bother.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  The same happened in CA with some stores being open and others closed. Why was Home Depot open? It made no sense in terms of spreading the disease . It was just arbitrary BS. Closing the beaches was stupid too. If there ever was a safe place then it was the beach or state park wheee uou are in the open and the window blows.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    People were rabidly cheering it on too. Police going around shutting playgrounds and arresting parents for playing outdoors with their children, while at the same time the politicians they voted for were constantly and egregiously shown to be flouting the rules on frivolities, parties, travel, fun. And there were excuses for the politicians and bloodlust for the commoner trying to exercise or raise their child. Absolutely flabbergasting. I used to wonder how on earth nazis and communists and the like were able to seize power and control of a population, and now I've seen it. Covid has been a really amazing learning experience for me.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago

CobrastanJorji 4y ago

You could probably make a pretty good argument. A firefighter deals closely with the population in non-voluntary situations. An athlete or performer is likely quite a bit separated from the crowd watching them, and they're choosing to be there anyway. I don't know if there was actually an attempt to justify the decision, though. And I imagine someone could also make a pretty good argument in the other direction. A firefighter is probably going to be wearing a mask. Performers by their nature are yelling into a crowded indoor space.

jesuscript 4y ago

Because it doesn’t matter who has Covid in a fire.

Rebelgecko 4y ago
Dunno how it is in NY, but in my city, the fire department spends way more time on paramedic duties than on actually fighting fires (around 40 EMS calls for every fire call). IMO if you're getting a ride to the hospital from someone it matters if they have COVID. And even though the vaccines don't guarantee that you won't get infected, the government does have an interest in preventing severe infections. COVID was the #1 killer of first responders
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > the fire department spends way more time on paramedic duties than on actually fighting fires Why does the fire department do medical stuff in the US? Why isn’t it medical people providing paramedics? Seems like something that should be left to professionals?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    What makes you think the fire department's medical staff aren't professionals? My city FD has 148 EMTs and 88 paramedics and are assigned to every station and unit in the city.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Most common example is probably motor vehicle accidents where firefighters (in concert with police officers) will secure the scene, gain access to the vehicle(s) if necessary, etc. A lot of firefighters are also EMTs and paramedics. Both because in places with volunteer firefighters they can just work as EMS, and also because there's quite a bit of overlap in that if you need a firefighter there's a decent chance having EMS around would be beneficial as well. Firefighters who aren't trained in EMS are not providing medical care, so saying "leave it to the professionals" is pretty dismissive in this context.

colinmhayes 4y ago

Because athletes and performers are irreplaceable and bring in tourist revenue which the city wants. Firefighters are more easily replaceable and have no effect on tourism. Having competing priorities is common enough, I don't see what doesn't make sense here. The city wants everyone to be vaccinated but it also wants broadway and basketball to be happening more, so they came up with this policy.

spaetzleesser 4y ago
Why do firefighters have no effect on tourism? Without them you can not run a city. Same for many other jobs like garbage collection.
- sky_rw 4y ago
  Well clearly there is an elite class to whom body autonomy is granted, and an underclass who must follow arbitrary and capricious rules. OP appreciates that celebrities and entertainers are our betters and should not be held to the same standard.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    An attitude which I've found to be curiously pervasive amongst self-proclaimed egalitarians and socialists.
    - VagueMag 4y ago
      FWIW, there was a vocal contingent of Marxists on Twitter who saw the mandates for the erosion of worker power and rights that they were, and vigorously opposed them. Richard Wolff even came around eventually, as well as Jimmy Dore after having his own personal run-in with the nasty side effects which are all too common with these vaccines. Sadly, though, some of the most awful scapegoaters of the unvaccinated were indeed on the "left." Noam Chomsky even said they should be excluded from society completely, and if that meant they couldn't even obtain food, well, that would be their problem.

whiddershins 4y ago

because they travel into the state from elsewhere to work.