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I think these should actually be written in the job ads because I wouldn’t want to work for a colleague who has your mentality. I worked with many bunch of sit

I think these should actually be written in the job ads because I wouldn’t want to work for a colleague who has your mentality. I worked with many bunch of sit-on-your-chair claim your paycheck at the end of the month types, another colleague another competition types, and this one is the most complex: overly-invested/$feelingLikeOwnerYetOwnNoShares types but yet I have no way to screen them during the interview process and a single mention in the job ad description could help me save some time: Companies should immediately tell if they would reject job-hoppers, or particularly screen for loyalist in tech(ones with delusion given commercial activity in IT), that is a company I can respect!

PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> Companies should immediately tell if they would reject job-hoppers Job-hopping isn't some arbitrary threshold that gets crossed. It's more of a pattern that gets identified while evaluating a person's resume. When I say "job hopper" I don't mean someone who has 10 years of experience across 3 or 4 different jobs. The "job hopper" resumes I see are some times as extreme as 12 jobs in 10 years, or occasionally people who have never reached the 1 year mark at any company. If someone can't last a full year as an FTE at any company, it's hard to argue that there isn't a problem. It's not a big deal for someone who is 1-2 years into their career. But when someone is 10 years into their career and they're not staying anywhere long enough to really make an impact, why would any hiring manager reasonably expect that to be different after hiring them again for job number 11 or whatever it ends up being? The most likely outcome is that the pattern continues.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  > The "job hopper" resumes I see are some times as extreme as 12 jobs in 10 years, or occasionally people who have never reached the 1 year mark at any company. Oh, man, I briefly worked adjacent to someone like that who went on to have principal and director level roles at pretty well-known start-ups, despite never sticking to any role for a year (according to their own LinkedIn!). Apparently they're now CTO of a small start-up, which seems like a recipe for disaster.
- izelnakri 4y ago
  Never reaching a year at 10 jobs is something to ask I think however: > why would any hiring manager reasonably expect that to be different after hiring them again for job 11 Thats is I think still the wrong approach, signals the wrong mentality in an IT company(a company thats greatest asset is its employees). Investing in employees can never be a saving center in a good IT business, considering all businesses are becoming IT businesses perhaps in every business in this context. If a candidate has the skills and took time to apply, if they are qualified you are responsible to hire them and keep them. If I was the manager of the hiring manager, I’d probably fire this hiring manager for keeping the organization dumber, and seeks his own interest/status-quo seeking behavior & protectionism with this behavior/approach/mentality. I do believe in moving mountains in 3-6 months, especially in badly managed projects or super fast growing companies.
  - PragmaticPulp 4y ago
    > If a candidate has the skills and took time to apply, if they are qualified you are responsible to hire them and keep them. The problem with this mentality is that the hiring process isn’t a 1-on-1 process between candidate and employer. When a job opening is posted, you get multiple applications from different people. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that hiring managers are obligated to hire the first candidate who applies. They collect a number of candidates and try to give the role to the person most qualified for the job. And that is the core problem for job hopping applicants: Inevitably, you’re going to go up against other candidates with resumes suggestive of longer tenures and, in turn, bigger accomplishments at companies.
    - avmich 4y ago
      > And that is the core problem for job hopping applicants: Inevitably, you’re going to go up against other candidates with resumes suggestive of longer tenures and, in turn, bigger accomplishments at companies. Can you consider job hopping as an advantage of the candidate, the same way you seem to consider it as a disadvantage? I've seen this bias for various people many times, and I also have examples among my fellow engineers, way more competent than average level in tech companies, who can't find a new position, not without many months of search and being dismissed for imagined shortcomings from the fragile interviewing process. Job hopping bias is one of traits lately which skews the field against them even more.
- j-bos 4y ago
  I agree with you, with one caveat. Why is one year not enough time to make an impact? Isn't a key in agile development the iterated development? Wouldn't a year have plenty of iterations where a developer could build out tooling, ci/cd processes, ship many multiple long lasting features?
  - ominous_prime 4y ago
    You can absolutely make an impact multiple times within a year, but the odds of those "impacts" being a net positive without ever having maintained the results is not good. If I'm hiring for a senior or better role, I want you to be able to make meaningful, sustainable changes in large and complex systems. It can take the better part of a year to even fully understand many complex systems, so it's unlikely you ever experienced the full long term affects of your changes.
    - flutas 4y ago
      > You can absolutely make an impact multiple times within a year, but the odds of those "impacts" being a net positive without ever having maintained the results is not good. Fully agree. I've seen a few FTEs come in, try to make a giant splash with changes, then leave right when their changes have any sort of major issue. I'm still dealing with bad code from someone that came in and tried to do that.
  - driscoll42 4y ago
    This is one of the key "promises" of agile development, which to me shows why agile promises more than it can deliver often times.
dzikimarian 4y ago
That's easy. Outsourcing companies don't care too much, as they lease your body to the highest bidder and don't care too much about the results. Any other company will prefer someone, who will stay longer, because for 3 months or more (more complex product they have, longer time), you're more cost, than asset, because you don't know the product and need some level of babysitting.
driscoll42 4y ago
On the contrary, the default position is and should be that job hopping is a negative, and it should be assumed the job hopping is a red flag. What you should want is a company that says job hopping is fine, basically being a consultant. It sounds like you're not asking good questions in an interview to find if a company is a cultural fit, interviews are a two way street after all.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> Companies should immediately tell if they would reject job-hoppers Job-hopping isn't some arbitrary threshold that gets crossed. It's more of a pattern that gets identified while evaluating a person's resume. When I say "job hopper" I don't mean someone who has 10 years of experience across 3 or 4 different jobs. The "job hopper" resumes I see are some times as extreme as 12 jobs in 10 years, or occasionally people who have never reached the 1 year mark at any company. If someone can't last a full year as an FTE at any company, it's hard to argue that there isn't a problem. It's not a big deal for someone who is 1-2 years into their career. But when someone is 10 years into their career and they're not staying anywhere long enough to really make an impact, why would any hiring manager reasonably expect that to be different after hiring them again for job number 11 or whatever it ends up being? The most likely outcome is that the pattern continues.

__derek__ 4y ago
> The "job hopper" resumes I see are some times as extreme as 12 jobs in 10 years, or occasionally people who have never reached the 1 year mark at any company. Oh, man, I briefly worked adjacent to someone like that who went on to have principal and director level roles at pretty well-known start-ups, despite never sticking to any role for a year (according to their own LinkedIn!). Apparently they're now CTO of a small start-up, which seems like a recipe for disaster.
izelnakri 4y ago
Never reaching a year at 10 jobs is something to ask I think however: > why would any hiring manager reasonably expect that to be different after hiring them again for job 11 Thats is I think still the wrong approach, signals the wrong mentality in an IT company(a company thats greatest asset is its employees). Investing in employees can never be a saving center in a good IT business, considering all businesses are becoming IT businesses perhaps in every business in this context. If a candidate has the skills and took time to apply, if they are qualified you are responsible to hire them and keep them. If I was the manager of the hiring manager, I’d probably fire this hiring manager for keeping the organization dumber, and seeks his own interest/status-quo seeking behavior & protectionism with this behavior/approach/mentality. I do believe in moving mountains in 3-6 months, especially in badly managed projects or super fast growing companies.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > If a candidate has the skills and took time to apply, if they are qualified you are responsible to hire them and keep them. The problem with this mentality is that the hiring process isn’t a 1-on-1 process between candidate and employer. When a job opening is posted, you get multiple applications from different people. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that hiring managers are obligated to hire the first candidate who applies. They collect a number of candidates and try to give the role to the person most qualified for the job. And that is the core problem for job hopping applicants: Inevitably, you’re going to go up against other candidates with resumes suggestive of longer tenures and, in turn, bigger accomplishments at companies.
  - avmich 4y ago
    > And that is the core problem for job hopping applicants: Inevitably, you’re going to go up against other candidates with resumes suggestive of longer tenures and, in turn, bigger accomplishments at companies. Can you consider job hopping as an advantage of the candidate, the same way you seem to consider it as a disadvantage? I've seen this bias for various people many times, and I also have examples among my fellow engineers, way more competent than average level in tech companies, who can't find a new position, not without many months of search and being dismissed for imagined shortcomings from the fragile interviewing process. Job hopping bias is one of traits lately which skews the field against them even more.
j-bos 4y ago
I agree with you, with one caveat. Why is one year not enough time to make an impact? Isn't a key in agile development the iterated development? Wouldn't a year have plenty of iterations where a developer could build out tooling, ci/cd processes, ship many multiple long lasting features?
- ominous_prime 4y ago
  You can absolutely make an impact multiple times within a year, but the odds of those "impacts" being a net positive without ever having maintained the results is not good. If I'm hiring for a senior or better role, I want you to be able to make meaningful, sustainable changes in large and complex systems. It can take the better part of a year to even fully understand many complex systems, so it's unlikely you ever experienced the full long term affects of your changes.
  - flutas 4y ago
    > You can absolutely make an impact multiple times within a year, but the odds of those "impacts" being a net positive without ever having maintained the results is not good. Fully agree. I've seen a few FTEs come in, try to make a giant splash with changes, then leave right when their changes have any sort of major issue. I'm still dealing with bad code from someone that came in and tried to do that.
- driscoll42 4y ago
  This is one of the key "promises" of agile development, which to me shows why agile promises more than it can deliver often times.

dzikimarian 4y ago

That's easy. Outsourcing companies don't care too much, as they lease your body to the highest bidder and don't care too much about the results. Any other company will prefer someone, who will stay longer, because for 3 months or more (more complex product they have, longer time), you're more cost, than asset, because you don't know the product and need some level of babysitting.

driscoll42 4y ago

On the contrary, the default position is and should be that job hopping is a negative, and it should be assumed the job hopping is a red flag. What you should want is a company that says job hopping is fine, basically being a consultant. It sounds like you're not asking good questions in an interview to find if a company is a cultural fit, interviews are a two way street after all.