8 ms·

Renewables + storage will provide massively cheaper baseload power.

by ncmncm 4y ago

zkomp 4y ago
Will not happen. ”green” energy is not green- it consume massive amount of resources, it is expensive, short lived, destabilize the grid. I’m super happy my country is finally waking up from the horrible green hypnosis.
- themitigating 4y ago
  It doesn't matter if it consumes resources what matters is that it's less than what it replaces a.k.a. better for the environment. I see this manipulative arguement used all the time with lithium mining.
  - tored 4y ago
    How are going to mine resources that doesn’t exist? There is not enough of the metals needed to go full renewable.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      False. There is no shortage of any of the materials needed to go fully renewable.
      - tored 4y ago
        It’s Time to Wake Up - The Currently Known Global Mineral Reserves Will Not Be Sufficient to Supply Enough Metals to Manufacture the Planned Non-fossil Fuel Industrial Systems https://www.gtk.fi/en/research/time-to-wake-up/ https://www.gtk.fi/en/research/time-to-wake-up/ "No matter what minerals will be needed, we will need large quantities of them as the renewable power sources like wind and solar, require extensive mineral resources to manufacture the infrastructure for fossil-free energy. And there is a challenge. Given the estimated required number of Electric Vehicles (EV’s) of different vehicle class, it is clear that there are not enough minerals in the currently reported global reserves to build just one generation of batteries for all EV’s and stationary power storage, in the global industrial ecosystem as it is today."
        themitigating 4y ago
        Does this take into account recycling? Regardless of if recycling is occurring now.
        synecdoche 4y ago
        If there’s not enough minerals to cover all needs, let alone for EVs and power storage only, how is recycling going to help, even if 100% efficient?
        themitigating 4y ago
        The total amount of cars needed each year is a combination of people getting one for the first time and others who are replacing one. That car that is replaced, assuming it's not being resold, is material that could reenter the system. Also moving pulling back this debate to more general topics: 1.We don't need to replace all cars, many older gas powered cars will still be on the road for a long time which buys time for points 2-4 2. There are other types of batteries, like NiMH, which don't contain lithium. Although these aren't as efficient many hybrids use them, I think the new Mavrick hybrid does (or some truck hybrid) 3. There could be new battery technology that will be invented 4.New technology has helped Tesla make more energy dense batteries and have them last longer A 2016 model s with the 70kwh battery pack has a 200 miles of range A 2022 Model s performance with a 98kwh battery pack has a range of 326 miles (this is a touch comparison because the new performance has much more power) sources: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15104936/tesla-model-s-70-70d-2016-10best-cars-feature/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15104936/tesla-model-... https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla...
        beefield 4y ago
        To put it nice, I would be careful to use that report to back any argument whatsoever. To come up with their conclusion they e.g. basically assumed LFP battery chemistry does not exist. (To be more accurate, they assumed that there is a set amount of nickel/cobalt you need to produce a kWh of lithium batteries) The conclusion also requires that no significant new reserves are found after 2018, which already now is proven false. (Lithium reserves have increased since 2018 by more than what a single generation of EVs need.)
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Ridiculous claim. What are the assumptions?
anonym29 4y ago
Enjoy paying for storage. At least in the US, even if we get storage down from $438/kWh (Jan 2022 grid-scale storage costs) to $200/kWh, consumer electricity prices are expected to rise somewhere between 1400% and 2200% per kWh, and total cost estimates to switch the entire US's power generation + distribution to pure renewables + storage, while maintaining current production and availability levels, are over $430tn, which is >20x the US GDP, according to: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/12/the-cost-of-net-zero-electrification-of-the-u-s-a-blog-post/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/12/the-cost-of-net-zero-...
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Storage cost is falling even faster than solar PV or wind ever did.
  - sunmag 4y ago
    .. Last I read even the automotive industry had trouble sourcing batteries. Would be interesting to know how many minutes(seconds?) of electricity we could store in all batteries produces last year should we go all in. This at least battery storage seems naive at such scale.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        Please stop accusing people of wishing for higher energy prices or being a troll. You have done it on a huge number of posts in this thread. If you want to convince anybody accusing them of wanting something bad is not the way to do it. In fact it makes you look like a troll.
        ncmncm 4y ago
sneaky_verily 4y ago
Renweable + storage in the form of lithium ion batteries exceeds the cost of nuclear by at least 50%. Some upcoming technologies liek compressed CO2 batteries make make price parity with nuclear a possibility but as of now your comment is incorrect.
- fyvhbhn 4y ago

Renewables + storage will provide massively cheaper baseload power.

by ncmncm 4y ago

Renewables + storage will provide massively cheaper baseload power.

Will not happen. ”green” energy is not green- it consume massive amount of resources, it is expensive, short lived, destabilize the grid. I’m super happy my country is finally waking up from the horrible green hypnosis.

themitigating 4y ago
It doesn't matter if it consumes resources what matters is that it's less than what it replaces a.k.a. better for the environment. I see this manipulative arguement used all the time with lithium mining.
- tored 4y ago
  How are going to mine resources that doesn’t exist? There is not enough of the metals needed to go full renewable.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    False. There is no shortage of any of the materials needed to go fully renewable.
    - tored 4y ago
      It’s Time to Wake Up - The Currently Known Global Mineral Reserves Will Not Be Sufficient to Supply Enough Metals to Manufacture the Planned Non-fossil Fuel Industrial Systems https://www.gtk.fi/en/research/time-to-wake-up/ https://www.gtk.fi/en/research/time-to-wake-up/ "No matter what minerals will be needed, we will need large quantities of them as the renewable power sources like wind and solar, require extensive mineral resources to manufacture the infrastructure for fossil-free energy. And there is a challenge. Given the estimated required number of Electric Vehicles (EV’s) of different vehicle class, it is clear that there are not enough minerals in the currently reported global reserves to build just one generation of batteries for all EV’s and stationary power storage, in the global industrial ecosystem as it is today."
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Does this take into account recycling? Regardless of if recycling is occurring now.
        synecdoche 4y ago
        If there’s not enough minerals to cover all needs, let alone for EVs and power storage only, how is recycling going to help, even if 100% efficient?
        themitigating 4y ago
        The total amount of cars needed each year is a combination of people getting one for the first time and others who are replacing one. That car that is replaced, assuming it's not being resold, is material that could reenter the system. Also moving pulling back this debate to more general topics: 1.We don't need to replace all cars, many older gas powered cars will still be on the road for a long time which buys time for points 2-4 2. There are other types of batteries, like NiMH, which don't contain lithium. Although these aren't as efficient many hybrids use them, I think the new Mavrick hybrid does (or some truck hybrid) 3. There could be new battery technology that will be invented 4.New technology has helped Tesla make more energy dense batteries and have them last longer A 2016 model s with the 70kwh battery pack has a 200 miles of range A 2022 Model s performance with a 98kwh battery pack has a range of 326 miles (this is a touch comparison because the new performance has much more power) sources: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15104936/tesla-model-s-70-70d-2016-10best-cars-feature/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15104936/tesla-model-... https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla...
      - beefield 4y ago
        To put it nice, I would be careful to use that report to back any argument whatsoever. To come up with their conclusion they e.g. basically assumed LFP battery chemistry does not exist. (To be more accurate, they assumed that there is a set amount of nickel/cobalt you need to produce a kWh of lithium batteries) The conclusion also requires that no significant new reserves are found after 2018, which already now is proven false. (Lithium reserves have increased since 2018 by more than what a single generation of EVs need.)
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Ridiculous claim. What are the assumptions?

anonym29 4y ago

Enjoy paying for storage. At least in the US, even if we get storage down from $438/kWh (Jan 2022 grid-scale storage costs) to $200/kWh, consumer electricity prices are expected to rise somewhere between 1400% and 2200% per kWh, and total cost estimates to switch the entire US's power generation + distribution to pure renewables + storage, while maintaining current production and availability levels, are over $430tn, which is >20x the US GDP, according to: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/12/the-cost-of-net-zero-electrification-of-the-u-s-a-blog-post/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/12/the-cost-of-net-zero-...

ncmncm 4y ago
Storage cost is falling even faster than solar PV or wind ever did.
- sunmag 4y ago
  .. Last I read even the automotive industry had trouble sourcing batteries. Would be interesting to know how many minutes(seconds?) of electricity we could store in all batteries produces last year should we go all in. This at least battery storage seems naive at such scale.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      Please stop accusing people of wishing for higher energy prices or being a troll. You have done it on a huge number of posts in this thread. If you want to convince anybody accusing them of wanting something bad is not the way to do it. In fact it makes you look like a troll.
      - ncmncm 4y ago

sneaky_verily 4y ago

Renweable + storage in the form of lithium ion batteries exceeds the cost of nuclear by at least 50%. Some upcoming technologies liek compressed CO2 batteries make make price parity with nuclear a possibility but as of now your comment is incorrect.

fyvhbhn 4y ago