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Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

29 points by terseus 4y ago

bitL 4y ago
NOKIA is pretty much a muster for the future of Europe. Made a headless chicken by US investors that needed to save their investments in Microsoft and going from a dominant force in one emerging market to an afterthought in two years.
akie 4y ago
One of the constant refrains in the Anglo-Saxon world is to describe Europe and the EU as permanently on the verge of collapse. It has not occurred so far, and it will not occur this time either.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  Well, with inflation, war, various shortages, lack of power for the winter, I'm very trustful in human nature, but that may be a little too much for Europe.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.
    - nradov 4y ago
      It's not that the other Europeans particularly care about Ukraine. They remember what happened last time they tried to appease an aggressive, expansionist dictator. If Ukraine is allowed to fall then next it will be Moldova, Lithuania, Poland, and so on. Better to take the pain now while the problem is still manageable rather than letting the situation spiral out of control.
      - weatherlite 4y ago
        I generally agree but I go back to the pessimistic article that (humorously?) predicts Europeans will go back to living conditions from 200 years ago. I don't think rational European leaders will let that happen. It could be that they completely lost their minds (there are signs...) but I give them some more credit for now. Even the Ukranians themselves probably have their limits on how much they care about Donbas and Crimea.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      Last time it was Germany. - It militarized Rhineland, nothing happened - It got Luftwaffe operational again, nothing happened - It annexed Austria, nothing happened - It was given Sudetenland, it was even encouraged by allies - It annexed rest of Czechoslovakia, nothing happened. - It started war with Poland, Allies declared war and then nothing happened. - Only when Germany started to conquer Norway, Allies have finally started to wake up.
      - weatherlite 4y ago
        There are parallels but also a whole bunch of differences between Nazi Germany and Russia.
    - bitL 4y ago
      They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. That gives credibility to this theory - if there are mass protests and new EU governments as a result, they can't go back anyway as there is no longer infrastructure for gas delivery anymore. It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible.
      - weatherlite 4y ago
        > They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. Pipes can be reconstructed, peace deals can be made and shut down gas fields can be reopened (looking at you Groningen). > It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible. Well if that happens it happens - what's your idea of preparing? To me a quick death sounds pretty good in such a case.
        bitL 4y ago
        Pipes can't be reconstructed quickly and can be blown up again later. My guess southern hemisphere might have some chance of survival if SHTF so that's where I will be heading. Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation, only a fraction will be vaporized instantly.
        weatherlite 4y ago
        You must be a hoot at parties! :) Look I'm not saying it's an impossibility but I don't think it's very likely any time soon. > Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation Most people die a pretty shitty death from cancer / degenration / dementia. I can't see how you can escape that, it awaits us all .(btw why the south? Are they immune to nuclear winter / food shortages / climate change?)
        bitL 4y ago
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    Thats overstating it. Things aren't looking good here in Denmark, but it takes far more than some bad economic times to crush us. Inflation is bad, but not unprecedented, neither is energy price spikes. We are not currently seeing a shortage of much, certainly things have gone up in price, but we do not have the shortages we had with Covid, there are no restrictions on what I can do and the war hasn't impacted me in any way, except that it is the thing on the news. It is possible we will lack power for the winter, its also possible putin nukes somebody. Not likely.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- titzer 4y ago
  Right!!?? You didn't die yesterday, so you won't die today. In reality, countries collapse in all kinds of different ways quite regularly.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    It is like Express.co.uk: EU on the brink!!!!!
- nradov 4y ago
  Europe collapsed twice during the 20th century and several times before that. It will probably happen again but the exact timing is impossible to accurately predict.
- carlob 4y ago
  Except it appears the author is Italian, not Anglo-Saxon.
- trgn 4y ago
  The article just takes "cui bono" and runs with it. Nordstream blown up by CIA, wink wink. Also, obviously!, total collapse of industry within 2-3 years and return to serfdom.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I’m currently in Chiang Mai, a city known for its digital nomad/entrepreneurship scene. Lots of European natives here who’ve been in the city for months. Many have even moved here permanently. Talking to them, there is a definite sense of pessimism, bordering on fatalism, about them. Some of this is reflected in salaries - skilled white collar workers get paid well on average in Europe, but their salaries haven’t kept pace with the rest of the world, including (and especially) America. Even as an Indian, most of my peer group makes similar wages as their European counterparts, without even factoring in purchasing power. What I mean to say is that it might all seem to be crumbling down now, but the decline seems to have started a while back.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  As a European, there might be a stagnation for few years as energy sources will be needed to be resolved first, otherwise relatively low wages are compromise for relatively high taxation and thus bearable public services, like working public transport or public hospitals.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Their views about the economic situation have no value unless they are economists. You're dressing up what at best is anecdotal evidence, and at worst heresay, with a long post that sounds mature and well thought out but it's not.
- Gud 4y ago
  The Indian middle class makes about the same(and often more) money than their European counterparts, I agree. But the Indian middle class is a much smaller part of the population, and the working class in particularly Western Europe has a much, much, much higher standard of living than the working class in India.
gadders 4y ago
Is it me, or does he skirt over Europe not working increasing the supply of gas locally? I'm not saying they could replace Russia or the US, but they could almost certainly produce more (whether via fracking or whatever).
- csdvrx 4y ago
  They could also import from North Africa - Spain does it, Germany wants a pipeline, but France is inbetween these two and blocks such initiatives to try to keep a future for their failing nuclear industry (even if 50% of it is offline), under various fake pretenses. It looks like a catastrophe in the making, and public opinion about say fracking or support for war sanctions might change when say grandmas start making the news for freezing to death due to prices/blackouts etc.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    Fracking probably takes awhile to get started...also geological European conditions are not great for that. I do wonder why the Dutch won't reopen the Groningen gas field. Yes earthquakes I know but this is a real crisis.
- jorts 4y ago
  Most of Europe doesn't have the natural resources to do that.
- a2tech 4y ago
  I also believe they could get all the gas they ever wanted by building a pipeline through Turkey to Turkmenistan. With this disaster of a war ongoing the Turkmen government might be willing to risk playing ball with Europe.
  - bitL 4y ago
    Isn't gas from that part of the world unfit for heating/production/food in the EU? I've read that basically Russia buys it all from those countries for their own specific industry/military purposes and then sends their own gas through their pipelines to export them as those countries' own gas.
roody15 4y ago
Good Article. No question the events in Ukraine coincide with Nord Streak 2 about to go online. The amount of war time propaganda on the Ukraine conflict has hit overdrive status and I would expect this article to “disappear” quickly. There is little room to discuss the larger geopolitic situation. Instead a simplified narrative of “Putin is an evil dictator invading a peaceful democracy and must be stopped at all costs” And “Ukraine is winning and will reclaim all territory including Crimea!!” Is all that is allowed.
- rags2riches 4y ago
  What would happen if you tried discussing something outside of the allowed narrative?
  - roody15 4y ago
    Watch just immediate downvotes.. or often one liner replies. Essentially anything outside of the narrative = Russian sympathizer. Reminds me of the bit activity around election cycles.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- simion314 4y ago
  So your intelligent theory is that Putin is smart but USA outsmarted him and EU ? Or US and Putin are both controlled by Illuminati and the plan was to??? We in East Europe we knew all along that we need to get in NATO ASAP because Russia is actual evil and would not esitate to exterminate us just to take our land and resources, so fuck your Trumpan-Illuminati theories, the reality is in your face and you refuse to see it, Putin and Russia are evil, they will not hesitate to doe evil , US is not perfect but is not some super genius state where they played Putin as a stupid puppet all along. Maybe we easter European are wrong, but for now we will curse Putin and Russia for all the shit is happening
djaouen 4y ago
This is stupidity. Renewable energy will win in the end.
- nradov 4y ago
  Renewable energy doesn't supply the chemical feed stocks that we currently obtain from fossil fuels. Those are essential to industrialized society and there are no cost-effective substitutes.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Without storage it won't
- a2tech 4y ago
  Also I don't believe for a minute that natural gas production in the US supplying Europe was the driver for this war. If it was, wouldn't have the push from Russia been towards securing the path of their pipelines instead of the Crimean peninsula?
  - roody15 4y ago
    The driver was to prevent the possible rise of Russia. Had Nordstream 2 been allowed to come online. Russia would have reaped enormous benefits and its influence in Europe would have strengthened. This was clearly not in the US’s geopolitical interest.
- anonuser123456 4y ago
  From the article "It seems clear that for us there are no other ways out than a decisive shift toward renewables, already today much cheaper than fossil fuels and capable of completely replacing them. Politicians have not yet understood this, but moving to renewables would protect us from new crises of energy availability and from blackmail by producers. But it's not something that can be done overnight."
- yourusername 4y ago
  Will that be soon enough for the Aluminium, steel and fertilizer plants that are currently idling and have fired 90% of their work force? In NL we even have food packing companies shutting down production this winter for 6 weeks. How many months/years of idling will it be before they go bankrupt or the owners decide to pull the plug?
TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
This is Russian/Tankie propoganda. Notice how the author subtly implies that America was the instigator in cutting Russian supplies to EU. Ignoring the fact that it was Putin who invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and started this whole sequence of events. It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. This is motivated article which speaks half-truths with the goal of casting events in a particular light to advantage Russian interests. I would dig further into the author's motivations.
- brabel 4y ago
  > It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. That's factually incorrect. Germany said before the invasion, and followed through with it, that it would not allow NordStream2 to come into operation if Russia invaded. Listen: Putin did start the war and caused most problems that are causing Europe's energy prices to skyrocket... but how can we just forget the order of event so quickly and start spreading fake claims when clearly it's not even necessary to make a point? Just say how it would be immoral to buy gas from Russia after the war was started regardless of consequences to the prices in Europe.
  - arrrg 4y ago
    Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open. Russia decided to cut deliveries (long before February, even) until eventually cutting them completely. Germany‘s stated policy is to buy gas if Russia wants to deliver it.
    - brabel 4y ago
      > Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open. Who said it was enough?? What are you responding to?? Also, it was definitely ready to operate since September 2021, and that's why it was full at the time of the explosions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who had been in favour of the project,[2] suspended its certification on 22 February 2022 > On November 16, 2021, European natural gas prices rose by 17% after Germany's energy regulator suspended approval of the Nord Stream 2 You can blame Putin for a lot of shit, but on this one, it was all Germany's fault.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
teagoat 4y ago
To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It reeks of conspiracy theory to me. EU citizens should hate the US for driving them into poverty and should embrace Russia invading their neighbor. One of the first results that comes up for me when I search "Nordstream 2" is the Brooking institute discussing similar conspiracy theories spreading among podcasters in the US, parroting the Kremlin: https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/ https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-k...
- yucky 4y ago
  I'm curious what the alternate theory of Nord 2 sabotage is? Does anybody other than the US benefit?
  - Gud 4y ago
    could as easily(likely, in my opinion) be Russia. Putin knows that the bridges to Europe are already burnt - might as well try to hurt the Europeans as much as they can for supporting Ukraine. Yes it hurts Russia economically, but for Europe it’s even worse.
    - shashurup 4y ago
      Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. As it turned out recently it is quite easy to come up with a ton of excuses to stop the supply. With the NS blown there is no leverage anymore. So, IMO this version doesn't hold to scrutiny.
      - notacoward 4y ago
        > Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. If the plan is to come in later as the savior of an impoverished Europe then yes, he does need to blow it up. Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy, and people will remember. Having it blown up by some unknown party, ideally the US, lets him pretend it was all out of his control and he's doing the best he can to help his dear friends in Europe.
hackandthink 4y ago
Related: https://infosannio.com/2022/10/01/lamico-tedesco/ https://infosannio.com/2022/10/01/lamico-tedesco/ (Massimo Gramellini - corriere.it) - For anyone who feels like a citizen of Europe, it was sad to see proof that our German-speaking compatriot Olaf Scholz essentially thinks of his own comforts. Not content with having backed the Dutch comrade in turning a deaf ear (it must be said) to the request to put a ceiling on the price of gas, the chancellor of Berlin hijacked two hundred billion of the German budget on the German bills, with many greetings to whom - for example the Italian budget - those two hundred billion do not have them.
calaverainfo 4y ago
This is a textbook piece of propaganda targeting the smart people, a real gem. The core principle lies in this sentence "The war in Ukraine is mostly a sideshow". With fascinating lightness it completely inverts the size of a story of one of the biggest countries in the world becoming fascist and attacking a neighbor in most boody war since WW2 which was several years in the making and a story of one infrastructure attack. The war and it's culprit is too obvious to attack directly, but what a propagandist can still try is to shift focus from the obvious main story to uncertain sidestory and switching their importance. Using the uncertainty of the sidestory it's then possible to use a lot of true arguments which convinces even the smart people if they miss the initial "significance inversion".

29 points by terseus 4y ago

bitL 4y ago

NOKIA is pretty much a muster for the future of Europe. Made a headless chicken by US investors that needed to save their investments in Microsoft and going from a dominant force in one emerging market to an afterthought in two years.

akie 4y ago

One of the constant refrains in the Anglo-Saxon world is to describe Europe and the EU as permanently on the verge of collapse. It has not occurred so far, and it will not occur this time either.

csdvrx 4y ago
Well, with inflation, war, various shortages, lack of power for the winter, I'm very trustful in human nature, but that may be a little too much for Europe.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.
  - nradov 4y ago
    It's not that the other Europeans particularly care about Ukraine. They remember what happened last time they tried to appease an aggressive, expansionist dictator. If Ukraine is allowed to fall then next it will be Moldova, Lithuania, Poland, and so on. Better to take the pain now while the problem is still manageable rather than letting the situation spiral out of control.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      I generally agree but I go back to the pessimistic article that (humorously?) predicts Europeans will go back to living conditions from 200 years ago. I don't think rational European leaders will let that happen. It could be that they completely lost their minds (there are signs...) but I give them some more credit for now. Even the Ukranians themselves probably have their limits on how much they care about Donbas and Crimea.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    Last time it was Germany. - It militarized Rhineland, nothing happened - It got Luftwaffe operational again, nothing happened - It annexed Austria, nothing happened - It was given Sudetenland, it was even encouraged by allies - It annexed rest of Czechoslovakia, nothing happened. - It started war with Poland, Allies declared war and then nothing happened. - Only when Germany started to conquer Norway, Allies have finally started to wake up.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      There are parallels but also a whole bunch of differences between Nazi Germany and Russia.
  - bitL 4y ago
    They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. That gives credibility to this theory - if there are mass protests and new EU governments as a result, they can't go back anyway as there is no longer infrastructure for gas delivery anymore. It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      > They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. Pipes can be reconstructed, peace deals can be made and shut down gas fields can be reopened (looking at you Groningen). > It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible. Well if that happens it happens - what's your idea of preparing? To me a quick death sounds pretty good in such a case.
      - bitL 4y ago
        Pipes can't be reconstructed quickly and can be blown up again later. My guess southern hemisphere might have some chance of survival if SHTF so that's where I will be heading. Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation, only a fraction will be vaporized instantly.
        weatherlite 4y ago
        You must be a hoot at parties! :) Look I'm not saying it's an impossibility but I don't think it's very likely any time soon. > Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation Most people die a pretty shitty death from cancer / degenration / dementia. I can't see how you can escape that, it awaits us all .(btw why the south? Are they immune to nuclear winter / food shortages / climate change?)
        bitL 4y ago
- tomjen3 4y ago
  Thats overstating it. Things aren't looking good here in Denmark, but it takes far more than some bad economic times to crush us. Inflation is bad, but not unprecedented, neither is energy price spikes. We are not currently seeing a shortage of much, certainly things have gone up in price, but we do not have the shortages we had with Covid, there are no restrictions on what I can do and the war hasn't impacted me in any way, except that it is the thing on the news. It is possible we will lack power for the winter, its also possible putin nukes somebody. Not likely.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
titzer 4y ago
Right!!?? You didn't die yesterday, so you won't die today. In reality, countries collapse in all kinds of different ways quite regularly.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  It is like Express.co.uk: EU on the brink!!!!!
nradov 4y ago
Europe collapsed twice during the 20th century and several times before that. It will probably happen again but the exact timing is impossible to accurately predict.
carlob 4y ago
Except it appears the author is Italian, not Anglo-Saxon.
trgn 4y ago
The article just takes "cui bono" and runs with it. Nordstream blown up by CIA, wink wink. Also, obviously!, total collapse of industry within 2-3 years and return to serfdom.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I’m currently in Chiang Mai, a city known for its digital nomad/entrepreneurship scene. Lots of European natives here who’ve been in the city for months. Many have even moved here permanently. Talking to them, there is a definite sense of pessimism, bordering on fatalism, about them. Some of this is reflected in salaries - skilled white collar workers get paid well on average in Europe, but their salaries haven’t kept pace with the rest of the world, including (and especially) America. Even as an Indian, most of my peer group makes similar wages as their European counterparts, without even factoring in purchasing power. What I mean to say is that it might all seem to be crumbling down now, but the decline seems to have started a while back.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
As a European, there might be a stagnation for few years as energy sources will be needed to be resolved first, otherwise relatively low wages are compromise for relatively high taxation and thus bearable public services, like working public transport or public hospitals.
themitigating 4y ago
Their views about the economic situation have no value unless they are economists. You're dressing up what at best is anecdotal evidence, and at worst heresay, with a long post that sounds mature and well thought out but it's not.
Gud 4y ago
The Indian middle class makes about the same(and often more) money than their European counterparts, I agree. But the Indian middle class is a much smaller part of the population, and the working class in particularly Western Europe has a much, much, much higher standard of living than the working class in India.

gadders 4y ago

Is it me, or does he skirt over Europe not working increasing the supply of gas locally? I'm not saying they could replace Russia or the US, but they could almost certainly produce more (whether via fracking or whatever).

csdvrx 4y ago
They could also import from North Africa - Spain does it, Germany wants a pipeline, but France is inbetween these two and blocks such initiatives to try to keep a future for their failing nuclear industry (even if 50% of it is offline), under various fake pretenses. It looks like a catastrophe in the making, and public opinion about say fracking or support for war sanctions might change when say grandmas start making the news for freezing to death due to prices/blackouts etc.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  Fracking probably takes awhile to get started...also geological European conditions are not great for that. I do wonder why the Dutch won't reopen the Groningen gas field. Yes earthquakes I know but this is a real crisis.
jorts 4y ago
Most of Europe doesn't have the natural resources to do that.
a2tech 4y ago
I also believe they could get all the gas they ever wanted by building a pipeline through Turkey to Turkmenistan. With this disaster of a war ongoing the Turkmen government might be willing to risk playing ball with Europe.
- bitL 4y ago
  Isn't gas from that part of the world unfit for heating/production/food in the EU? I've read that basically Russia buys it all from those countries for their own specific industry/military purposes and then sends their own gas through their pipelines to export them as those countries' own gas.

roody15 4y ago

Good Article. No question the events in Ukraine coincide with Nord Streak 2 about to go online. The amount of war time propaganda on the Ukraine conflict has hit overdrive status and I would expect this article to “disappear” quickly. There is little room to discuss the larger geopolitic situation. Instead a simplified narrative of “Putin is an evil dictator invading a peaceful democracy and must be stopped at all costs” And “Ukraine is winning and will reclaim all territory including Crimea!!” Is all that is allowed.

rags2riches 4y ago
What would happen if you tried discussing something outside of the allowed narrative?
- roody15 4y ago
  Watch just immediate downvotes.. or often one liner replies. Essentially anything outside of the narrative = Russian sympathizer. Reminds me of the bit activity around election cycles.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
simion314 4y ago
So your intelligent theory is that Putin is smart but USA outsmarted him and EU ? Or US and Putin are both controlled by Illuminati and the plan was to??? We in East Europe we knew all along that we need to get in NATO ASAP because Russia is actual evil and would not esitate to exterminate us just to take our land and resources, so fuck your Trumpan-Illuminati theories, the reality is in your face and you refuse to see it, Putin and Russia are evil, they will not hesitate to doe evil , US is not perfect but is not some super genius state where they played Putin as a stupid puppet all along. Maybe we easter European are wrong, but for now we will curse Putin and Russia for all the shit is happening

djaouen 4y ago

This is stupidity. Renewable energy will win in the end.

nradov 4y ago
Renewable energy doesn't supply the chemical feed stocks that we currently obtain from fossil fuels. Those are essential to industrialized society and there are no cost-effective substitutes.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Without storage it won't
a2tech 4y ago
Also I don't believe for a minute that natural gas production in the US supplying Europe was the driver for this war. If it was, wouldn't have the push from Russia been towards securing the path of their pipelines instead of the Crimean peninsula?
- roody15 4y ago
  The driver was to prevent the possible rise of Russia. Had Nordstream 2 been allowed to come online. Russia would have reaped enormous benefits and its influence in Europe would have strengthened. This was clearly not in the US’s geopolitical interest.
anonuser123456 4y ago
From the article "It seems clear that for us there are no other ways out than a decisive shift toward renewables, already today much cheaper than fossil fuels and capable of completely replacing them. Politicians have not yet understood this, but moving to renewables would protect us from new crises of energy availability and from blackmail by producers. But it's not something that can be done overnight."
yourusername 4y ago
Will that be soon enough for the Aluminium, steel and fertilizer plants that are currently idling and have fired 90% of their work force? In NL we even have food packing companies shutting down production this winter for 6 weeks. How many months/years of idling will it be before they go bankrupt or the owners decide to pull the plug?

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago

This is Russian/Tankie propoganda. Notice how the author subtly implies that America was the instigator in cutting Russian supplies to EU. Ignoring the fact that it was Putin who invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and started this whole sequence of events. It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. This is motivated article which speaks half-truths with the goal of casting events in a particular light to advantage Russian interests. I would dig further into the author's motivations.

brabel 4y ago
> It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. That's factually incorrect. Germany said before the invasion, and followed through with it, that it would not allow NordStream2 to come into operation if Russia invaded. Listen: Putin did start the war and caused most problems that are causing Europe's energy prices to skyrocket... but how can we just forget the order of event so quickly and start spreading fake claims when clearly it's not even necessary to make a point? Just say how it would be immoral to buy gas from Russia after the war was started regardless of consequences to the prices in Europe.
- arrrg 4y ago
  Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open. Russia decided to cut deliveries (long before February, even) until eventually cutting them completely. Germany‘s stated policy is to buy gas if Russia wants to deliver it.
  - brabel 4y ago
    > Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open. Who said it was enough?? What are you responding to?? Also, it was definitely ready to operate since September 2021, and that's why it was full at the time of the explosions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 > German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who had been in favour of the project,[2] suspended its certification on 22 February 2022 > On November 16, 2021, European natural gas prices rose by 17% after Germany's energy regulator suspended approval of the Nord Stream 2 You can blame Putin for a lot of shit, but on this one, it was all Germany's fault.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

teagoat 4y ago

To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It reeks of conspiracy theory to me. EU citizens should hate the US for driving them into poverty and should embrace Russia invading their neighbor. One of the first results that comes up for me when I search "Nordstream 2" is the Brooking institute discussing similar conspiracy theories spreading among podcasters in the US, parroting the Kremlin: https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/ https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-k...

yucky 4y ago
I'm curious what the alternate theory of Nord 2 sabotage is? Does anybody other than the US benefit?
- Gud 4y ago
  could as easily(likely, in my opinion) be Russia. Putin knows that the bridges to Europe are already burnt - might as well try to hurt the Europeans as much as they can for supporting Ukraine. Yes it hurts Russia economically, but for Europe it’s even worse.
  - shashurup 4y ago
    Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. As it turned out recently it is quite easy to come up with a ton of excuses to stop the supply. With the NS blown there is no leverage anymore. So, IMO this version doesn't hold to scrutiny.
    - notacoward 4y ago
      > Putin controls the valves, he doesn't need to blow it up to hurt the Europeans. If the plan is to come in later as the savior of an impoverished Europe then yes, he does need to blow it up. Shutting off the valves makes him the bad guy, and people will remember. Having it blown up by some unknown party, ideally the US, lets him pretend it was all out of his control and he's doing the best he can to help his dear friends in Europe.

hackandthink 4y ago

Related: https://infosannio.com/2022/10/01/lamico-tedesco/ https://infosannio.com/2022/10/01/lamico-tedesco/ (Massimo Gramellini - corriere.it) - For anyone who feels like a citizen of Europe, it was sad to see proof that our German-speaking compatriot Olaf Scholz essentially thinks of his own comforts. Not content with having backed the Dutch comrade in turning a deaf ear (it must be said) to the request to put a ceiling on the price of gas, the chancellor of Berlin hijacked two hundred billion of the German budget on the German bills, with many greetings to whom - for example the Italian budget - those two hundred billion do not have them.

calaverainfo 4y ago

This is a textbook piece of propaganda targeting the smart people, a real gem. The core principle lies in this sentence "The war in Ukraine is mostly a sideshow". With fascinating lightness it completely inverts the size of a story of one of the biggest countries in the world becoming fascist and attacking a neighbor in most boody war since WW2 which was several years in the making and a story of one infrastructure attack. The war and it's culprit is too obvious to attack directly, but what a propagandist can still try is to shift focus from the obvious main story to uncertain sidestory and switching their importance. Using the uncertainty of the sidestory it's then possible to use a lot of true arguments which convinces even the smart people if they miss the initial "significance inversion".