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The pipelines were useless to the russian goverment beforehand since they weren't sending any gas through it. It doesn't matter what the protesters wanted, Russ

The pipelines were useless to the russian goverment beforehand since they weren't sending any gas through it. It doesn't matter what the protesters wanted, Russia wasn't sending any gas. So there was never an "alternative". But blowing them up means that people get worried again. The worries about having enough gas to last the winter increases. Russia wants a fearful Europe, not a determined one. This plays right into their hands, and it doesn't really matter whether people know it was them. They are waging a proxy war with NATO through the Ukraine. And the fact that they are also threatening nuclear weapons just confirms their strategy in regards to Europe. They want a Europe that is afraid of Russia.

soco 4y ago
Maybe we should split the players: Putin and Russia might be different arguments. Like, if Putin goes away, the "new Russia" could be seen as "clean" thus NS1/2 imports would be acceptable again. This scenario fails if the pipes fail though.
- boardwaalk 4y ago
  Considering all the Russian energy execs dying mysteriously and Putin being a KGB guy, Putin pulling something like this to make the him the only option and making “the only way out is through” for this invasion… doesn’t seem impossible. Maybe he thinks things will be okay if his new annexations come to a relative peace and have grudging acceptance from Europe like they did with Crimea. I doubt it, but…
vintermann 4y ago
> The pipelines were useless to the russian goverment beforehand since they weren't sending any gas through it. But they could have. That's what having an alternative means! Putin was recently, explicitly, fishing for concessions in return for gas through those pipelines. And people in Germany - a minority, for sure, but still - were demonstrating in the streets, demanding that Germany should make those concessions for gas. Yes, Putin wants a fearful Europe, and he already had it. Now he has a Europe that's got nothing to lose, gas-wise, for the winter. This is getting to me. How can people be so blind? IMO, believing that Putin blew up his own pipeline rather than Norway's which just opened (it's very close, if you can reach one you can reach the other), is the same as believing the rebels in Douma used chemical weapons on themselves. If they had them, wouldn't they use it on the enemy instead? In Douma, people claiming a false flag self-attack had to contend with the fact that the area was surrounded, in fact it fell by the next day. I kept arguing with them, wouldn't it be very easy to catch the false flaggers in the act? And with the accusation you're making now that Russia did it (which is also a false flag accusation), it happened in Danish and Swedish waters. Near Bornholm. Those Baltic islands are of great strategic importance (much to the inhabitants' annoyance), so you can bet the shallow sea is full of listening equipment, and that spy satellites track every fricking seabird. Yet they missed a Russian sabotage operation? Also, if Russia wanted an excuse for mobilization etc, why didn't he blow up the pipeline in his own waters, or at least closer to it? Then he could at least claim to be attacked! It would be a disastrously expensive manufactured casus belli, but at least it would have been that. This is instead, if you assume Russia did it, playing right into the US's hands! They've hated that pipeline for years!
- nivenkos 4y ago
  The centrist mindset is just "Russia is bad. This was a bad thing. Therefore Russia must have done it." That's as deep as it goes.
- api 4y ago
  My money is on a faction of the Russian military either attempting to sabotage Putin or alternately attempting to block off potential routes to negotiation to force a confrontation. Both are plausible. US intelligence works closely with the UK and Germany. If it was the US it was with Germany's knowledge and approval.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    Have you forgotten Snowden's revelations? They spied like crazy on EU politicians. Germany is not even a 5 eyes country. That's an example that they're both able and willing to manipulate German politics and keep Germany in the dark about it. They would probably have needed Sweden's and Denmark's cooperation, but again there is recent history they are very willing to give the US whatever covert assistance they ask for.
    - prvit 4y ago
      What does "spied like crazy" mean? As far as I can tell, the publicly released Snowden docs show no such thing. Also, I'm not sure how you go from mere spying to "able and willing to manipulate German politics".
      - tarboreus 4y ago
        Famously they tapped Merkel's phone, which is a bold move.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  And people in Germany - a minority, for sure, but still - were demonstrating in the streets, demanding that Germany should make those concessions for gas. Now you've got those same Russians screaming about how evil and awful it is that Germany is allied with the United States. Gee, who does that benefit? Yet they missed a Russian sabotage operation? Wouldn't they have caught an American sabotage operation? America as this mythical beast that's so powerful they can destroy a major gas pipeline without being noticed (or with everyone too scared to react) is precisely what makes your argument so farcical (well that and your insistence that the attacks happened in Danish territory). And with the accusation you're making now that Russia did it (which is also a false flag accusation), it happened in Danish and Swedish waters. No. The explosions happened in international waters.

soco 4y ago

Maybe we should split the players: Putin and Russia might be different arguments. Like, if Putin goes away, the "new Russia" could be seen as "clean" thus NS1/2 imports would be acceptable again. This scenario fails if the pipes fail though.

boardwaalk 4y ago
Considering all the Russian energy execs dying mysteriously and Putin being a KGB guy, Putin pulling something like this to make the him the only option and making “the only way out is through” for this invasion… doesn’t seem impossible. Maybe he thinks things will be okay if his new annexations come to a relative peace and have grudging acceptance from Europe like they did with Crimea. I doubt it, but…

vintermann 4y ago

> The pipelines were useless to the russian goverment beforehand since they weren't sending any gas through it. But they could have. That's what having an alternative means! Putin was recently, explicitly, fishing for concessions in return for gas through those pipelines. And people in Germany - a minority, for sure, but still - were demonstrating in the streets, demanding that Germany should make those concessions for gas. Yes, Putin wants a fearful Europe, and he already had it. Now he has a Europe that's got nothing to lose, gas-wise, for the winter. This is getting to me. How can people be so blind? IMO, believing that Putin blew up his own pipeline rather than Norway's which just opened (it's very close, if you can reach one you can reach the other), is the same as believing the rebels in Douma used chemical weapons on themselves. If they had them, wouldn't they use it on the enemy instead? In Douma, people claiming a false flag self-attack had to contend with the fact that the area was surrounded, in fact it fell by the next day. I kept arguing with them, wouldn't it be very easy to catch the false flaggers in the act? And with the accusation you're making now that Russia did it (which is also a false flag accusation), it happened in Danish and Swedish waters. Near Bornholm. Those Baltic islands are of great strategic importance (much to the inhabitants' annoyance), so you can bet the shallow sea is full of listening equipment, and that spy satellites track every fricking seabird. Yet they missed a Russian sabotage operation? Also, if Russia wanted an excuse for mobilization etc, why didn't he blow up the pipeline in his own waters, or at least closer to it? Then he could at least claim to be attacked! It would be a disastrously expensive manufactured casus belli, but at least it would have been that. This is instead, if you assume Russia did it, playing right into the US's hands! They've hated that pipeline for years!

nivenkos 4y ago
The centrist mindset is just "Russia is bad. This was a bad thing. Therefore Russia must have done it." That's as deep as it goes.
api 4y ago
My money is on a faction of the Russian military either attempting to sabotage Putin or alternately attempting to block off potential routes to negotiation to force a confrontation. Both are plausible. US intelligence works closely with the UK and Germany. If it was the US it was with Germany's knowledge and approval.
- vintermann 4y ago
  Have you forgotten Snowden's revelations? They spied like crazy on EU politicians. Germany is not even a 5 eyes country. That's an example that they're both able and willing to manipulate German politics and keep Germany in the dark about it. They would probably have needed Sweden's and Denmark's cooperation, but again there is recent history they are very willing to give the US whatever covert assistance they ask for.
  - prvit 4y ago
    What does "spied like crazy" mean? As far as I can tell, the publicly released Snowden docs show no such thing. Also, I'm not sure how you go from mere spying to "able and willing to manipulate German politics".
    - tarboreus 4y ago
      Famously they tapped Merkel's phone, which is a bold move.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
inferiorhuman 4y ago
And people in Germany - a minority, for sure, but still - were demonstrating in the streets, demanding that Germany should make those concessions for gas. Now you've got those same Russians screaming about how evil and awful it is that Germany is allied with the United States. Gee, who does that benefit? Yet they missed a Russian sabotage operation? Wouldn't they have caught an American sabotage operation? America as this mythical beast that's so powerful they can destroy a major gas pipeline without being noticed (or with everyone too scared to react) is precisely what makes your argument so farcical (well that and your insistence that the attacks happened in Danish territory). And with the accusation you're making now that Russia did it (which is also a false flag accusation), it happened in Danish and Swedish waters. No. The explosions happened in international waters.