6 ms·

To what are you referring?

klyrs 4y ago
There is a "satire[1]" meme floating with some disinformation about book bans in Florida. However, the state is second, only behind Texas, in actual book bans[2]. Relatedly, the vague "don't say gay" law has a significant impact on LGBTQ teachers right to free expression -- straight teachers are totally free to talk about their spouses, for example, but gay teachers are not. Quite reminiscent of the "don't ask don't tell" policy. [1] https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/a-viral-list-of-banned-books-in-florida-is-satire/ https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/a-viral-list-of-b... [2] https://floridapolitics.com/archives/557111-florida-second-only-to-texas-in-banning-school-books-as-number-of-bans-rises-report-finds/ https://floridapolitics.com/archives/557111-florida-second-o...
- zdragnar 4y ago
  What's struck me as weird about this is that I don't recall a single teacher ever mentioning their spouse, or their personal weekend plans. The idea that a teacher wants to talk to their students about their personal lives is utterly foreign to me. Maybe it's just a sign of times changing? Edit: this thought came to me in the context of a quote I saw from a teacher upset he couldn't talk about going surfing with his husband. There was a wide enough income gap in our school that teachers talking about vacations was frowned upon, since you never really knew which kids didn't actually ever get to go on vacations, etc.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    Did you never have a teacher you were friendly with or served as a mentor even outside of class? I grew up in poverty and if it wasn't for a couple teachers going above and beyond I probably would've never got the help I need to get free community college tuition. With cases like that, personal details end up discussed inadvertently because it's impossible to avoid. So-and-so's wife might be a teacher in the same district, or they might show up at school during late work hours and so forth. Same if they're running a club or some extracurricular activity. I don't think that's especially weird at all.
    - pstuart 4y ago
      Indeed. And there's a difference between on observation that something exists (e.g., their same sex spouse) vs discussing their "romantic relationship". So they want to shut down any and all speech in that regard but force companies to publish speech that may not fall within their terms of service. This is small government?
  - klyrs 4y ago
    I had a teacher who taught a class that regularly featured his vacation photos because he spent his summers traveling. Sounds super corny, but he managed to make it interesting, and the first-person account brought to life the countries, religions and philosophies that we learning about. His wife occasionally showed up in those pictures. My school also had two married teachers who shared a surname. We all knew they were married. There were also a few teachers (band, orchestra, sports coaches) whose spouses would volunteer at events and travel with them. Also quite a few teachers wore religious symbols -- cross on a necklace kind of thing. And quite a few of my teachers had pictures of their families on their desks. They didn't make a big deal about it, but evidence was in plain sight. Now, I was in the high school in the 90s. I'm not sure when you think this changed.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    > What's struck me as weird about this is that I don't recall a single teacher ever mentioning their spouse, or their personal weekend plans. That strikes me as odd. I recall this happening many times. Heck, there were even several pairs of teachers who met at school and got married. One teacher proposed to another teacher during a town parade where many students and teachers were present. It's not like teachers dwelled on personal details in class. It's just that it would be impossible to miss.
    - skissane 4y ago
      Doesn't seem odd to me at all. Growing up, I almost never heard my teachers talk about their partners or spouses or romantic relationships. I remember my year 6 teacher got married and decided to change her surname as a result – but that's all I can remember ever hearing about her marriage, and if she hadn't decided to change her surname, I doubt I would have heard about it at all. Even now, we know very little about the romantic lives of our son's teachers – and I expect our son knows even less than we do. Even when we do know things, it is through gossip among parents, or socialising with teachers – not from teachers telling the children about it in class.
  - jackson1442 4y ago
    It was relatively common in school to discuss what happened over breaks, weekends, etc. to build conversation skills. Also, almost every k12 teacher I had would prepare a slideshow about themselves to present on the first day of class along with the syllabus. After all, you're spending a lot of time in that classroom as a k12 student. Many teachers also have pictures of their family on their desks, as one might in their office at any other job. Especially in lower grades, teachers are not robots that exclusively teach content from bell to bell each day.
    - honkdaddy 4y ago
      > Also, almost every k12 teacher I had would prepare a slideshow about themselves to present on the first day of class along with the syllabus This is pretty different from coming to school and telling 7yos about the sex party you went to this weekend and which gender you were identifying as when you went. This is the reality some parents are trying to prevent when they say some American teachers are taking their freedom to share their personal lives a bit far. Let's be real, obviously there's nothing wrong with having a teacher who's LGBT. What people have a problem with are the folks who derive their entire identity out of that, and then greatly encourage the kids they teach to do the same. It's not dissimilar from a teacher being a veteran and insisting on sharing that part of their life with their students, to a point where parents find it crosses boundaries. We actually had a teacher at my high school who used to be a sniper in the Canadian Armed Forces. He was eventually told by the principal no more Afghan war stories, as it was making the students feel uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing from teacher. The very obvious comparison here is a teacher coming to school and telling their kids, in detail, about their sex life or multiple gender transition surgeries. While they're topics which I'm comfortable with, I can't speak for every parent and I think it's wrong for the state to say "these topics MUST be socially acceptable to you, bigot." Just teach the class! You don't need to get them excited about queer culture or gun culture or joining the military. Everyone would be better so much better off if teachers could just largely leave their personal lives at home and stick to the syllabus.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        > This is pretty different from coming to school and telling 7yos about the sex party you went to this weekend and which gender you were identifying as when you went. That sounds extremely specific. Do you have a source? Because I tend to agree, if somebody told my kid shit like that I'd also want them fired too.
- anon291 4y ago
  There are books public schools or public libraries may not carry, not bans.. Germany making pro Nazi rhetoric illegal no matter where is a ban (one I can agree with) Florida making sure their Public money is not spent on this is not a ban. You can still own and publish these books in Florida. Or have them in a privately owned library or at a private university or school. Let's stop hyperbolizing. It is actually totally reasonable to censor books in libraries targeted towards children. Not doing so is unreasonable.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    If I donate a book that is banned, the school library will not accept it. That is a ban.
    - anon291 4y ago
      It costs money to keep a book. And lending a book is a positive action. If you gave the library your playboy collection should they keep it? Why or why not? Clearly, it is important to have standards for school libraries. There are other books that elementary school libraries should not contain. For example, mein kampf should be maybe available to higher-grade high-schoolers. Certainly not children. My school library growing up would not lend books marked for older grades to younger ones without permission. This is the same thing.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  Does the bill in fact restrict anyone from saying the word "gay"? If not, continuing to use the misnomer is spreading misinformation.
  - andrew_ 4y ago
    For any downvoters, please review the following https://t.e2ma.net/click/sv236h/8z0tiag/wa9559 https://t.e2ma.net/click/sv236h/8z0tiag/wa9559 It does not ban nor prevent the use of the word "gay." Asserting so is pushing information that is false, hence misinformation.
  - kyrra 4y ago
    Agreed. And if you actually want to read the bill, called "Parental Rights in Education": https://flgov.com/2022/03/28/governor-ron-desantis-signs-historic-bill-to-protect-parental-rights-in-education/ https://flgov.com/2022/03/28/governor-ron-desantis-signs-his... There was so much misframing and misinformation about the bill, continuing to use the Democrat and media made up name and language for the bill shows your slant. Just because many media organizations kept calling it, that doesn't mean anybody here should.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > If not, continuing to use the misnomer is spreading misinformation. Just like the reframing of "woke" and "critical race theory" are misinformation - right? Right? I have accepted that reframing language is now a legitimate political tool, and from my PoV, the right has been doing it a lot, such as labelling any milquetoast protest by groups nominally on the left an "insurrection" after 1/6. I believe it's a deliberate attack akin to semantic satiation to render a word meaningless, the conservative operative bluntly admitted (on Twitter!) to successful rebranding "woke". That egg will not be unscrambled.
    - andrew_ 4y ago
      I was raised that two wrongs don't make right. I'll continue to take the high road. I don't need to score points against anyone else.
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  >> However, the state is second, only behind Texas, in actual book bans The bans in the article you cited are done at the school district level, not the state level. Holding the executive branch of government of Florida responsible for those decisions would be similar to blaming the Biden administration for the actions of Florida's executive branch. It also appears that the link you cited confuses curriculum selection with book banning. There's a range of what can be called a book ban. For example, when the novel Ulysses was banned, people who sold the book were arrested and imports of the book into the US were seized. That's definitely a book ban. Nothing of the sort is happening in Florida. There are also cases where local school districts remove titles from school libraries, but those books can still be borrowed from public libraries, sold in book stores, or purchased or read online. If that's a book ban, it's not a book ban in the same sense that the ban of Ulysses was a book ban. Then there are decisions by local school districts about what material should be used to teach classes in the schools in that district. For me, exercising control over school curriculum is not a book ban and is in no way similar to seizing copies of books and arresting people for selling those books.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Districts are banning books they believe they need to to comply with state law.
    - rufus_foreman 4y ago
      Which books are banned under state law?
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        Ones which 1. Are complained about by a parent and 2. Are obscene Note that 2 is open to interpretation, so this justification has been used to ban classics like beloved and the kite runner, as school librarians can face criminal penalties if they don't do what (a single) parent asks.
        4y ago
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  The state can't censor books per the 1A.... unless you're considering restricting some publications unsuitable for children "banning books"... Also the don't say gay bill is fake news because it doesn't say that.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  The so-called "don't say gay" law doesn't actually restrict LGBTQ teachers from talking about their gay partners in informal contexts: it bans them from teaching kids in a formal context about gender and sexuality (of any kind - heterosexual or homosexual) before a certain age and restricting it based on curriculum standards above that age. The idea that the law restricts a male teacher from having a family photo or talking to students about what he did with his husband over vacation is completely false. That would be as illegal as preventing a teacher from praying with students in their off-time (after football games), which recently got re-affirmed by the supreme court. It only binds teachers' speech when they are operating in their official capacity as agents of the state. While you might not agree with this particular restriction, agents of the state generally do not have free speech when they are acting in their official capacity. Teachers, DMV employees, and police officers all have lots of restrictions on their official speech. The ability of the people to restrict the speech of their agents is very important for maintaining a democracy. It keeps religion out of school curricula and it is what makes cops read you your rights when you are arrested.

There is a "satire[1]" meme floating with some disinformation about book bans in Florida. However, the state is second, only behind Texas, in actual book bans[2]. Relatedly, the vague "don't say gay" law has a significant impact on LGBTQ teachers right to free expression -- straight teachers are totally free to talk about their spouses, for example, but gay teachers are not. Quite reminiscent of the "don't ask don't tell" policy. [1] https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/a-viral-list-of-banned-books-in-florida-is-satire/ https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/a-viral-list-of-b... [2] https://floridapolitics.com/archives/557111-florida-second-only-to-texas-in-banning-school-books-as-number-of-bans-rises-report-finds/ https://floridapolitics.com/archives/557111-florida-second-o...

zdragnar 4y ago
What's struck me as weird about this is that I don't recall a single teacher ever mentioning their spouse, or their personal weekend plans. The idea that a teacher wants to talk to their students about their personal lives is utterly foreign to me. Maybe it's just a sign of times changing? Edit: this thought came to me in the context of a quote I saw from a teacher upset he couldn't talk about going surfing with his husband. There was a wide enough income gap in our school that teachers talking about vacations was frowned upon, since you never really knew which kids didn't actually ever get to go on vacations, etc.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Did you never have a teacher you were friendly with or served as a mentor even outside of class? I grew up in poverty and if it wasn't for a couple teachers going above and beyond I probably would've never got the help I need to get free community college tuition. With cases like that, personal details end up discussed inadvertently because it's impossible to avoid. So-and-so's wife might be a teacher in the same district, or they might show up at school during late work hours and so forth. Same if they're running a club or some extracurricular activity. I don't think that's especially weird at all.
  - pstuart 4y ago
    Indeed. And there's a difference between on observation that something exists (e.g., their same sex spouse) vs discussing their "romantic relationship". So they want to shut down any and all speech in that regard but force companies to publish speech that may not fall within their terms of service. This is small government?
- klyrs 4y ago
  I had a teacher who taught a class that regularly featured his vacation photos because he spent his summers traveling. Sounds super corny, but he managed to make it interesting, and the first-person account brought to life the countries, religions and philosophies that we learning about. His wife occasionally showed up in those pictures. My school also had two married teachers who shared a surname. We all knew they were married. There were also a few teachers (band, orchestra, sports coaches) whose spouses would volunteer at events and travel with them. Also quite a few teachers wore religious symbols -- cross on a necklace kind of thing. And quite a few of my teachers had pictures of their families on their desks. They didn't make a big deal about it, but evidence was in plain sight. Now, I was in the high school in the 90s. I'm not sure when you think this changed.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  > What's struck me as weird about this is that I don't recall a single teacher ever mentioning their spouse, or their personal weekend plans. That strikes me as odd. I recall this happening many times. Heck, there were even several pairs of teachers who met at school and got married. One teacher proposed to another teacher during a town parade where many students and teachers were present. It's not like teachers dwelled on personal details in class. It's just that it would be impossible to miss.
  - skissane 4y ago
    Doesn't seem odd to me at all. Growing up, I almost never heard my teachers talk about their partners or spouses or romantic relationships. I remember my year 6 teacher got married and decided to change her surname as a result – but that's all I can remember ever hearing about her marriage, and if she hadn't decided to change her surname, I doubt I would have heard about it at all. Even now, we know very little about the romantic lives of our son's teachers – and I expect our son knows even less than we do. Even when we do know things, it is through gossip among parents, or socialising with teachers – not from teachers telling the children about it in class.
- jackson1442 4y ago
  It was relatively common in school to discuss what happened over breaks, weekends, etc. to build conversation skills. Also, almost every k12 teacher I had would prepare a slideshow about themselves to present on the first day of class along with the syllabus. After all, you're spending a lot of time in that classroom as a k12 student. Many teachers also have pictures of their family on their desks, as one might in their office at any other job. Especially in lower grades, teachers are not robots that exclusively teach content from bell to bell each day.
  - honkdaddy 4y ago
    > Also, almost every k12 teacher I had would prepare a slideshow about themselves to present on the first day of class along with the syllabus This is pretty different from coming to school and telling 7yos about the sex party you went to this weekend and which gender you were identifying as when you went. This is the reality some parents are trying to prevent when they say some American teachers are taking their freedom to share their personal lives a bit far. Let's be real, obviously there's nothing wrong with having a teacher who's LGBT. What people have a problem with are the folks who derive their entire identity out of that, and then greatly encourage the kids they teach to do the same. It's not dissimilar from a teacher being a veteran and insisting on sharing that part of their life with their students, to a point where parents find it crosses boundaries. We actually had a teacher at my high school who used to be a sniper in the Canadian Armed Forces. He was eventually told by the principal no more Afghan war stories, as it was making the students feel uncomfortable hearing that sort of thing from teacher. The very obvious comparison here is a teacher coming to school and telling their kids, in detail, about their sex life or multiple gender transition surgeries. While they're topics which I'm comfortable with, I can't speak for every parent and I think it's wrong for the state to say "these topics MUST be socially acceptable to you, bigot." Just teach the class! You don't need to get them excited about queer culture or gun culture or joining the military. Everyone would be better so much better off if teachers could just largely leave their personal lives at home and stick to the syllabus.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      > This is pretty different from coming to school and telling 7yos about the sex party you went to this weekend and which gender you were identifying as when you went. That sounds extremely specific. Do you have a source? Because I tend to agree, if somebody told my kid shit like that I'd also want them fired too.
anon291 4y ago
There are books public schools or public libraries may not carry, not bans.. Germany making pro Nazi rhetoric illegal no matter where is a ban (one I can agree with) Florida making sure their Public money is not spent on this is not a ban. You can still own and publish these books in Florida. Or have them in a privately owned library or at a private university or school. Let's stop hyperbolizing. It is actually totally reasonable to censor books in libraries targeted towards children. Not doing so is unreasonable.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  If I donate a book that is banned, the school library will not accept it. That is a ban.
  - anon291 4y ago
    It costs money to keep a book. And lending a book is a positive action. If you gave the library your playboy collection should they keep it? Why or why not? Clearly, it is important to have standards for school libraries. There are other books that elementary school libraries should not contain. For example, mein kampf should be maybe available to higher-grade high-schoolers. Certainly not children. My school library growing up would not lend books marked for older grades to younger ones without permission. This is the same thing.
andrew_ 4y ago
Does the bill in fact restrict anyone from saying the word "gay"? If not, continuing to use the misnomer is spreading misinformation.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  For any downvoters, please review the following https://t.e2ma.net/click/sv236h/8z0tiag/wa9559 https://t.e2ma.net/click/sv236h/8z0tiag/wa9559 It does not ban nor prevent the use of the word "gay." Asserting so is pushing information that is false, hence misinformation.
- kyrra 4y ago
  Agreed. And if you actually want to read the bill, called "Parental Rights in Education": https://flgov.com/2022/03/28/governor-ron-desantis-signs-historic-bill-to-protect-parental-rights-in-education/ https://flgov.com/2022/03/28/governor-ron-desantis-signs-his... There was so much misframing and misinformation about the bill, continuing to use the Democrat and media made up name and language for the bill shows your slant. Just because many media organizations kept calling it, that doesn't mean anybody here should.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > If not, continuing to use the misnomer is spreading misinformation. Just like the reframing of "woke" and "critical race theory" are misinformation - right? Right? I have accepted that reframing language is now a legitimate political tool, and from my PoV, the right has been doing it a lot, such as labelling any milquetoast protest by groups nominally on the left an "insurrection" after 1/6. I believe it's a deliberate attack akin to semantic satiation to render a word meaningless, the conservative operative bluntly admitted (on Twitter!) to successful rebranding "woke". That egg will not be unscrambled.
  - andrew_ 4y ago
    I was raised that two wrongs don't make right. I'll continue to take the high road. I don't need to score points against anyone else.
rufus_foreman 4y ago
>> However, the state is second, only behind Texas, in actual book bans The bans in the article you cited are done at the school district level, not the state level. Holding the executive branch of government of Florida responsible for those decisions would be similar to blaming the Biden administration for the actions of Florida's executive branch. It also appears that the link you cited confuses curriculum selection with book banning. There's a range of what can be called a book ban. For example, when the novel Ulysses was banned, people who sold the book were arrested and imports of the book into the US were seized. That's definitely a book ban. Nothing of the sort is happening in Florida. There are also cases where local school districts remove titles from school libraries, but those books can still be borrowed from public libraries, sold in book stores, or purchased or read online. If that's a book ban, it's not a book ban in the same sense that the ban of Ulysses was a book ban. Then there are decisions by local school districts about what material should be used to teach classes in the schools in that district. For me, exercising control over school curriculum is not a book ban and is in no way similar to seizing copies of books and arresting people for selling those books.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Districts are banning books they believe they need to to comply with state law.
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    Which books are banned under state law?
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      Ones which 1. Are complained about by a parent and 2. Are obscene Note that 2 is open to interpretation, so this justification has been used to ban classics like beloved and the kite runner, as school librarians can face criminal penalties if they don't do what (a single) parent asks.
      - 4y ago
TeeMassive 4y ago
The state can't censor books per the 1A.... unless you're considering restricting some publications unsuitable for children "banning books"... Also the don't say gay bill is fake news because it doesn't say that.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
The so-called "don't say gay" law doesn't actually restrict LGBTQ teachers from talking about their gay partners in informal contexts: it bans them from teaching kids in a formal context about gender and sexuality (of any kind - heterosexual or homosexual) before a certain age and restricting it based on curriculum standards above that age. The idea that the law restricts a male teacher from having a family photo or talking to students about what he did with his husband over vacation is completely false. That would be as illegal as preventing a teacher from praying with students in their off-time (after football games), which recently got re-affirmed by the supreme court. It only binds teachers' speech when they are operating in their official capacity as agents of the state. While you might not agree with this particular restriction, agents of the state generally do not have free speech when they are acting in their official capacity. Teachers, DMV employees, and police officers all have lots of restrictions on their official speech. The ability of the people to restrict the speech of their agents is very important for maintaining a democracy. It keeps religion out of school curricula and it is what makes cops read you your rights when you are arrested.