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Similarly, a lot of people think it's inherently wasteful (at least in terms of climate change-related sensitivities) to live in the southern US where it's comm

Similarly, a lot of people think it's inherently wasteful (at least in terms of climate change-related sensitivities) to live in the southern US where it's commonly accepted to run air conditioning for many months of the year, whereas nobody blinks twice at the number of oil-fired furnaces in New England.

1-6 4y ago
We can’t let politics run the nation’s energy policies. The decision makers need to be a neutral body of elected officials.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  The usage of the word "politics" has somehow become so distorted that people are begging for non-political government.
- PraetorianGourd 4y ago
  An elected official is by definition not neutral. I think representative government is as good as it gets, but it will never be neutral or bereft of politics.
- hpkuarg 4y ago
  Neutral and elected are mutually exclusive. ;-)
  - 8note 4y ago
    Neutral and decisions are mutually exclusive, even
ricardobayes 4y ago
Or wood-fired, surprisingly common still in parts of Europe. Related, but sad news is e.g. in Hungary, they removed protection from basically all forests to be used as firewood. We will pay dearly for this hubris. Can you imagine chopping up Redwood national park for firewood? This is what is happening currently in Europe.
- kuboble 4y ago
  Though there is a sense of hypocrisy here. Europe used to be a one big jungle and the western Europe was first to chop it all and build their wealth on it. If now we regret it then those who did chop off all their forests should share part of their wealth if they don't want others to follow suit.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Same in rich Austria. I saw many apartments around the million euro ballpark in the older posh city center buildings, that are still heated by firewood stoves and many countryside houses are still heated by oil. Heat pumps? Ha! Never saw them anywhere around here. It all feels incredibly dirty and inefficient to me for such a rich country.
  - tpmx 4y ago
    Well, oil is cheaper than electricity now*. *) Depending on time and location of course, but it's the case surprisingly often. As a Swede, the more I learn about about how central Europe has been heating their homes the more disgusted I become. Like, the way e.g. Germany seems to think of burning gas as "clean". I mean, maybe compared to coal, but... you shut down nuclear plants with a plan to replace with (Russian) gas? You do understand burning this causes CO2 emissions, right? That was the many-billion-Euro German green energy revolution your environmentalists wouldn't stop talking about a decade ago? And now our electricity in southern Sweden (which is what we generally use to heat our houses, in contrast to most of Europe, since it used to be very cheap and clean here, just a year ago. Most use an air-to-air/water heat pump or three) is insane costly, because of a combination of idiotic leftist politicans/voters also shutting down nuclear plants while at the same time building export power connections to Europe. It's like everyone is doing the opposite of what's sane. /rant over
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >building export power connections to Europe Those export connections are there to benefit Germany industry who basically shut down some domestic production, because "green", and is instead importing its deficit from the others, raising the prices for everyone. Portugal and Spain together are the only ones not connected to the shared grid and now have the cheapest energy prices in Europe, with Germany mumbling about it that this should change. Well done guys.
galangalalgol 4y ago
Keeping your house at 80F when its 115F outside would seem to use less energy than keeping your house at 60F when it is -1F out. Maybe humidity makes it closer to even? For me one bill was gas and one was electric, so harder to compare. I'll ask some coworkers with only a heat pump.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Part of it is everything creates waste heat - so a well insulated house can take a looooong time to cool (my furnace died in the winter and I didn’t notice for over a week). And you can survive “unaided” quite low (sleeping bags rated to -30°?) but there is a heat point where you die if you cannot escape it somehow.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > Maybe humidity makes it closer to even? If the humidity is high enough, it can take it past even. But you won't find that out by comparing summer and winter numbers in the same location, because there aren't a significant number of locations that have both summer and winter conditions severe enough to push the numbers. You would want to compare, say, Canada in winter with south Florida or south Texas in summer (or, for even more extreme, northern Scandinavia in winter with southeast Asia or equatorial Africa in summer).
  - yesbabyyes 4y ago
    Sweden can range from -25 to 35 °C. Heat pumps are common, both downhole heat exchangers (rock heat we call it) and air source heat pumps, among home owners. Central heating is also common and often heated by garbage.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    Scandinavia in winter won't usually be a heat pump to air though right? Don't they heatpump from geothermal? Even just locally here the 25 degree F differential with ~50% relative humidity in summer would be interesting to compare to the 60 degree F differential in winter. Maybe those ultra efficient hygroscopic dehumidifiers will finally enter production. And heat pumping to geothermal for summer might help too. I know some people locally do that. Big investment though.
spikej 4y ago
That's the reason there's now a major push in a lot of places to replace those with heat pumps...

1-6 4y ago

We can’t let politics run the nation’s energy policies. The decision makers need to be a neutral body of elected officials.

pessimizer 4y ago
The usage of the word "politics" has somehow become so distorted that people are begging for non-political government.
PraetorianGourd 4y ago
An elected official is by definition not neutral. I think representative government is as good as it gets, but it will never be neutral or bereft of politics.
hpkuarg 4y ago
Neutral and elected are mutually exclusive. ;-)
- 8note 4y ago
  Neutral and decisions are mutually exclusive, even

ricardobayes 4y ago

Or wood-fired, surprisingly common still in parts of Europe. Related, but sad news is e.g. in Hungary, they removed protection from basically all forests to be used as firewood. We will pay dearly for this hubris. Can you imagine chopping up Redwood national park for firewood? This is what is happening currently in Europe.

kuboble 4y ago
Though there is a sense of hypocrisy here. Europe used to be a one big jungle and the western Europe was first to chop it all and build their wealth on it. If now we regret it then those who did chop off all their forests should share part of their wealth if they don't want others to follow suit.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Same in rich Austria. I saw many apartments around the million euro ballpark in the older posh city center buildings, that are still heated by firewood stoves and many countryside houses are still heated by oil. Heat pumps? Ha! Never saw them anywhere around here. It all feels incredibly dirty and inefficient to me for such a rich country.
- tpmx 4y ago
  Well, oil is cheaper than electricity now*. *) Depending on time and location of course, but it's the case surprisingly often. As a Swede, the more I learn about about how central Europe has been heating their homes the more disgusted I become. Like, the way e.g. Germany seems to think of burning gas as "clean". I mean, maybe compared to coal, but... you shut down nuclear plants with a plan to replace with (Russian) gas? You do understand burning this causes CO2 emissions, right? That was the many-billion-Euro German green energy revolution your environmentalists wouldn't stop talking about a decade ago? And now our electricity in southern Sweden (which is what we generally use to heat our houses, in contrast to most of Europe, since it used to be very cheap and clean here, just a year ago. Most use an air-to-air/water heat pump or three) is insane costly, because of a combination of idiotic leftist politicans/voters also shutting down nuclear plants while at the same time building export power connections to Europe. It's like everyone is doing the opposite of what's sane. /rant over
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >building export power connections to Europe Those export connections are there to benefit Germany industry who basically shut down some domestic production, because "green", and is instead importing its deficit from the others, raising the prices for everyone. Portugal and Spain together are the only ones not connected to the shared grid and now have the cheapest energy prices in Europe, with Germany mumbling about it that this should change. Well done guys.

galangalalgol 4y ago

Keeping your house at 80F when its 115F outside would seem to use less energy than keeping your house at 60F when it is -1F out. Maybe humidity makes it closer to even? For me one bill was gas and one was electric, so harder to compare. I'll ask some coworkers with only a heat pump.

bombcar 4y ago
Part of it is everything creates waste heat - so a well insulated house can take a looooong time to cool (my furnace died in the winter and I didn’t notice for over a week). And you can survive “unaided” quite low (sleeping bags rated to -30°?) but there is a heat point where you die if you cannot escape it somehow.
pdonis 4y ago
> Maybe humidity makes it closer to even? If the humidity is high enough, it can take it past even. But you won't find that out by comparing summer and winter numbers in the same location, because there aren't a significant number of locations that have both summer and winter conditions severe enough to push the numbers. You would want to compare, say, Canada in winter with south Florida or south Texas in summer (or, for even more extreme, northern Scandinavia in winter with southeast Asia or equatorial Africa in summer).
- yesbabyyes 4y ago
  Sweden can range from -25 to 35 °C. Heat pumps are common, both downhole heat exchangers (rock heat we call it) and air source heat pumps, among home owners. Central heating is also common and often heated by garbage.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Scandinavia in winter won't usually be a heat pump to air though right? Don't they heatpump from geothermal? Even just locally here the 25 degree F differential with ~50% relative humidity in summer would be interesting to compare to the 60 degree F differential in winter. Maybe those ultra efficient hygroscopic dehumidifiers will finally enter production. And heat pumping to geothermal for summer might help too. I know some people locally do that. Big investment though.

spikej 4y ago

That's the reason there's now a major push in a lot of places to replace those with heat pumps...