5 ms·

Why should the style matter more than the content. If our gov agencies are as sensitive to style of communication as you suggest then I would say they are wasti

Why should the style matter more than the content. If our gov agencies are as sensitive to style of communication as you suggest then I would say they are wasting our tax dollars with their extreme focus on aesthetics and spurious semantics.

maxbond 4y ago
As I've said, what I believe is that this document _was not intended for regulators_ and is employing _deceptive tactics to win in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law_, and you're welcome not to find that important but I do. I'd also argue that style and aesthetics do, in fact, matter and are worth discussing, as they are part of the context in which the content resides and our understanding would be incomplete without them. I do think there is a good reason for bodies which are meant to dispassionately find facts and enforce regulations to prefer plain language and straightforward argumentation. But even if that weren't the case, it really wouldn't reflect on my argument. Additionally, everything the document alleges could be true, and the allegations worthy of discussion - I haven't argued that they aren't true or that we shouldn't be discussing them, I have no way of knowing if they are true and am ambivalent about whether we should give them oxygen - and that would not reflect on my argument.
- cbdc_watcher 4y ago
  Maybe some gov agencies have the kind of culture that is biased toward a dry and austere communication style such as that typically found in papers coming out of regulatory agencies (and ones presented to them), but I assure you it is not a issue of logic; it's an issue of cultural preference. Trying to argue that a certain communication style is more productive in a certain context is again a cultural bias (not of your opinion but of theirs)
  - maxbond 4y ago
    I think we're just having different conversations here.
    - cbdc_watcher 4y ago
      you're saying it was sent to the regulators but it was written as a blog post for popular consumption. I'm countering by saying that whether the regulators are communicated with using a dry, austere style or a theatrical one fit for a blog post should not change the outcome, unless the regulators are culturally biased (toward the dry style) and therefore the sender chose to hit two birds with one stone )both the regulators and blog readers as audience).... that is unless the regulators are culturally biased
      - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
        Yes — why not achieve the most pressure from as many angles as possible, while telling the truth, just in a civilian-approachable way (as is customary in hacktivist circles).
- fragmede 4y ago
  Tactics which will win over the court of public opinion differ than tactics that would win over regulators, but the piece was always going to try and convince the reader of it's thesis, whomever the reader ends up being. I'm curious why you think the difference in audience make those tactics rise to the level of deception and propaganda though. Stripped of all bold emphasis, would the document read the same? IMO, yes. But I'm not an SEC regulator.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    I believe the document lied about the intended audience - both directly stating and, through form and aesthetics, implying, that it was for one audience while truly being for another - to mislead the reader into thinking it was more authoritative than it actually was. Were this to be a blog post or press release, I wouldn't call it deceptive. I go into slightly more detail on this point here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32603317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32603317 No, I don't believe it would read the same without emphasis. Especially since the emphasis is often on superlatives rather than the substance of certain statements. I'm not sure what to say other than, "emphasis is a tool of graphic design that does, in fact, function." It guides the eye and enables the reader to skim, and if you took away the emphasis, this document would be less effective, at least if the goals of the document are what I have argued.
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      "Lied" makes it seem like the guy has any agenda besides protecting the Internet and the community around it. Your questions seem reasonable except the fact they're about him! Do you understand his (very populist) history?!
      - maxbond 4y ago
        It does not seem likely to me that Mudge wrote this document personally. The document either doesn't have a byline or the byline is censored, but I'm guessing it was authored by some lawyers and distributed by Whistleblower Aid, or perhaps authored by Whistleblower Aid. I don't think it particularly reflects on Mudge's personal views on the situation, and it probably doesn't reflect on his intentions either. It's pretty apparent that one of the intentions of this document is to get Musk out of hot water - totally separate from "protecting the internet" and not a particularly populist goal. I'd speculate this represents a collaboration between Musk and Mudge's legal teams, probably in exchange for Musk funding litigation from Mudge regarding wrongful termination. That's all speculation, it's just what makes the most sense to me.

maxbond 4y ago

As I've said, what I believe is that this document _was not intended for regulators_ and is employing _deceptive tactics to win in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law_, and you're welcome not to find that important but I do. I'd also argue that style and aesthetics do, in fact, matter and are worth discussing, as they are part of the context in which the content resides and our understanding would be incomplete without them. I do think there is a good reason for bodies which are meant to dispassionately find facts and enforce regulations to prefer plain language and straightforward argumentation. But even if that weren't the case, it really wouldn't reflect on my argument. Additionally, everything the document alleges could be true, and the allegations worthy of discussion - I haven't argued that they aren't true or that we shouldn't be discussing them, I have no way of knowing if they are true and am ambivalent about whether we should give them oxygen - and that would not reflect on my argument.

cbdc_watcher 4y ago
Maybe some gov agencies have the kind of culture that is biased toward a dry and austere communication style such as that typically found in papers coming out of regulatory agencies (and ones presented to them), but I assure you it is not a issue of logic; it's an issue of cultural preference. Trying to argue that a certain communication style is more productive in a certain context is again a cultural bias (not of your opinion but of theirs)
- maxbond 4y ago
  I think we're just having different conversations here.
  - cbdc_watcher 4y ago
    you're saying it was sent to the regulators but it was written as a blog post for popular consumption. I'm countering by saying that whether the regulators are communicated with using a dry, austere style or a theatrical one fit for a blog post should not change the outcome, unless the regulators are culturally biased (toward the dry style) and therefore the sender chose to hit two birds with one stone )both the regulators and blog readers as audience).... that is unless the regulators are culturally biased
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      Yes — why not achieve the most pressure from as many angles as possible, while telling the truth, just in a civilian-approachable way (as is customary in hacktivist circles).
fragmede 4y ago
Tactics which will win over the court of public opinion differ than tactics that would win over regulators, but the piece was always going to try and convince the reader of it's thesis, whomever the reader ends up being. I'm curious why you think the difference in audience make those tactics rise to the level of deception and propaganda though. Stripped of all bold emphasis, would the document read the same? IMO, yes. But I'm not an SEC regulator.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I believe the document lied about the intended audience - both directly stating and, through form and aesthetics, implying, that it was for one audience while truly being for another - to mislead the reader into thinking it was more authoritative than it actually was. Were this to be a blog post or press release, I wouldn't call it deceptive. I go into slightly more detail on this point here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32603317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32603317 No, I don't believe it would read the same without emphasis. Especially since the emphasis is often on superlatives rather than the substance of certain statements. I'm not sure what to say other than, "emphasis is a tool of graphic design that does, in fact, function." It guides the eye and enables the reader to skim, and if you took away the emphasis, this document would be less effective, at least if the goals of the document are what I have argued.
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    "Lied" makes it seem like the guy has any agenda besides protecting the Internet and the community around it. Your questions seem reasonable except the fact they're about him! Do you understand his (very populist) history?!
    - maxbond 4y ago
      It does not seem likely to me that Mudge wrote this document personally. The document either doesn't have a byline or the byline is censored, but I'm guessing it was authored by some lawyers and distributed by Whistleblower Aid, or perhaps authored by Whistleblower Aid. I don't think it particularly reflects on Mudge's personal views on the situation, and it probably doesn't reflect on his intentions either. It's pretty apparent that one of the intentions of this document is to get Musk out of hot water - totally separate from "protecting the internet" and not a particularly populist goal. I'd speculate this represents a collaboration between Musk and Mudge's legal teams, probably in exchange for Musk funding litigation from Mudge regarding wrongful termination. That's all speculation, it's just what makes the most sense to me.