7 ms·

Ask HN: For a startup website to show customer logos, do you need permission?

21 points by notabanker 4y ago

Many startup websites list company logos on their website as a form of social proof. I'm wondering if these startups took the company's permission before displaying their logo.

gadders 4y ago
If you're dealing with big companies, they way well put in the contract with you that you can't use their logo without permission.
jaythvv 4y ago
yes
mytailorisrich 4y ago
You should first ask if they are OK with you naming them as customer at all.
- notabanker 4y ago
  I agree. I see single-digit million ARR startups list Google, Facebook, Visa, etc. as customers. Do you think they actually went through the process of getting permission to 1. list as customer and 2. use their logo on the website ? If they did go through that process, I wonder if there's a written guide somewhere, on how to go about it.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    > Do you think they actually went through the process of getting permission to… Based on my experience working with and for a few startups, it's likely that many of them did not. I've been asked by CEOs to not remove Company X logo even though there was no relationship beyond a customer account which used a Company X email address. However, as several folks in this thread have noted, the process of working with customers' marketing departments is an opportunity to build relationships. Some won't let you, and that's fine. Companies like Apple often don't even let vendors who are core to their business use their name.
    - nrb 4y ago
      > I've been asked by CEOs to not remove Company X logo even though there was no relationship beyond a customer account which used a Company X email address. At best, this seems like a pretty easy way to convert them into a former customer.
      - notahacker 4y ago
        But if the company itself isn't the actual customer, you don't lose anything by upsetting their legal/marketing team! And if the account's a free trial account, you're not losing any cash even if the individual account owner gets offended on behalf of their employer... The other wheeze for startups with few or no customers who want some recognisable badges on their home page is padding the "we work with" section with logos of companies where they use that company's product rather than vice versa...
        CharlesW 4y ago
        > But if the company itself isn't the actual customer, you don't lose anything by upsetting their legal/marketing team! Well, those badge-worthy companies can preemptively ban your product as well as future business development/co-marketing opportunities. If you never see yourself having an actual relationship of any kind with those companies, and your ethical bar is that low, then you may decide it's worth it. Certainly, many crypto companies are practicing this form of wishful thinking right now. https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/29/23284330/helium-crypto-mesh-network-lime-salesforce-denials https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/29/23284330/helium-crypto-me...
        skinnymuch 4y ago
        In the scheme of how corrupt and manipulative capitalism in general is, putting up company logos for any reason is far too unimportant to be a low ethical bar. Almost every corporation recognizable enough for their logo to matter are themselves 100x more problematic than their logo being put up
acomjean 4y ago
You are supposed to. Generally its better to ask. If theyre already a customer, there is a good chance someone is going to go to your site and see it. Sometimes it gets wierd, we had a large fast food logo on our site. We had only sold to 5 or so franchises in our area... So it was true but only kindof.
- notabanker 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing your insight.
- willnz 4y ago
  > So it was true but only kindof. I'm almost certain that's the case when most of those kinds of logos are shown. Most likely that's 80-90% of what happens when companies show logos on their website. Does Netflix really pay for that many SaaS products? Or is it really that one or two Netflix employees use it...
- jeromie 4y ago
  If you wanted to piss off the legal team at my large multinational employer and create strong headwinds for any future renewal conversations or more broad adoption for the rest of time, slapping our logo on your front page without asking was a guaranteed way to do it. Our lawyers did not forgive or forget.
eranation 4y ago
In probably 99.9% of cases, at least in the US, the answer is yes. Forget about getting sued, you want the logos in your homepage to be a good reference to future customers. Like you don't put references in your resume without talking to them first... Same idea. But also the legal aspect... some companies will bar you from using their logo, (they could even negotiate a discount if they become "referencable"). The underlying reason is that some companies will not want anyone to know they use vendor X for purpose Y (e.g. Apple). But as I said, forget about the legal aspect, if a prospect sees a logo, they might ask you to setup a reference call (mostly for B2B / Enterprise, but not limited)
- notabanker 4y ago
  Good to know there's a whole set of actions you have to be prepared for if you list a company's logo -- discounts, set up reference call, etc. Thank you.
  - ev1 4y ago
    Some companies don't give you a choice ;) Digitalocean TOS, not changable and required on signup: 2.3 You grant us permission to include your name, logos, and trademarks in our promotional and marketing materials and communications.
    - nrb 4y ago
      The enforceability of that is probably extremely weak, most plainly: does the person agreeing to the TOS have the right to grant permission to use the logos or trademarks?
      - ev1 4y ago
        Yeah, but it's still kind of a shitty move.
        nrb 4y ago
        I don’t disagree at all :) these sort of scummy clauses deserve more scrutiny.
PassageNick 4y ago
I would not consider putting a logo on my company site without having the permission of said company. At best, it would be presumptuous, at worst, a cause for legal action.
- notabanker 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing a critical insight.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
Yes, they need permission. In some cases, the customer will expect a discount, knowing that they're a large customer and that their logo on your startup's website will instill some trust from potential customers and could lead to more sales.
stinkypantsman 4y ago
Most of the time the right to use the logo is included in the contract language (or the customer says that any usage of their logo has to be explicitly approved). Helium (web3 start-up) recently got roasted for using Lime and Salesforce's logos when they were not customers and did not have a relationship with the start-up.
johnobrien1010 4y ago
Legally you do not need permission, it is considered fair use. Business wise and so on is another matter.
ipython 4y ago
Yes. Ask for permission.
vivegi 4y ago
Yes, they should get permission. A company logo is protected by trademarks and copyrights in almost all jursdictions. Companies do not like to see their logos splashed across their vendors' websites, case studies, presentations etc., without their legal/communications teams having a say over that. Most Fortune 500 companies would have this as a standard legal clause in their agreements and require that such requests be made in writing. (This excludes public brand usage guidelines published by companies for including their logos eg: Social media links for FB, Goog, LinkedIn, Instagram etc., and they are covered by the separate terms of use there.) Check your agreement with your client. If it has such a clause related to marketing material (social proof would fall under that), seek their permission as prescribed in your agreement. It may help to get your client liaison on your side by letting them know first. Then wait. It is quite possible that the client may not get back to you. In that case, err on the side of caution and DO NOT use the logo on your website/social proof page. As an alternative, when we made presentations to a small room (of prospective clients, potential investors etc.,) we may include a Top clients roster slide with the logos but mark that specific slide as confidential and show it only within the room and never use it for broader distribution. This practice is easier for your legal team to clear if the parties in the room are under non-disclosure agreements. It may be okay in other circumstances; read the room and use your discretion. Not a lawyer. Source: personal experience.
_odey 4y ago
What about the font awesome brand logos they provide? Can I put them on my personal, or business, website as the "text" part of a link to my profile in their platform? I mean, I already do it, but should I also ask permission to do that? That would be weird since they had to pay font awesome to have their logo included in the font.
gnz11 4y ago
I’ve come across my company’s logo used like this a few times before on startup sites. It made me curious and would ask around if anyone had ever heard of or used said startup. In most cases no one had ever heard of the startup or they were commissioned for some small project that never went anywhere. No one seemed to care though that the logo was being used. I would take those logo lists with a grain of salt.
cupachabra 4y ago
Yes, just make sure you have a clause in you terms and conditions in your website to be able to use all logos of companies signing up.

21 points by notabanker 4y ago

Many startup websites list company logos on their website as a form of social proof. I'm wondering if these startups took the company's permission before displaying their logo.

gadders 4y ago

If you're dealing with big companies, they way well put in the contract with you that you can't use their logo without permission.

jaythvv 4y ago

yes

mytailorisrich 4y ago

You should first ask if they are OK with you naming them as customer at all.

notabanker 4y ago
I agree. I see single-digit million ARR startups list Google, Facebook, Visa, etc. as customers. Do you think they actually went through the process of getting permission to 1. list as customer and 2. use their logo on the website ? If they did go through that process, I wonder if there's a written guide somewhere, on how to go about it.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > Do you think they actually went through the process of getting permission to… Based on my experience working with and for a few startups, it's likely that many of them did not. I've been asked by CEOs to not remove Company X logo even though there was no relationship beyond a customer account which used a Company X email address. However, as several folks in this thread have noted, the process of working with customers' marketing departments is an opportunity to build relationships. Some won't let you, and that's fine. Companies like Apple often don't even let vendors who are core to their business use their name.
  - nrb 4y ago
    > I've been asked by CEOs to not remove Company X logo even though there was no relationship beyond a customer account which used a Company X email address. At best, this seems like a pretty easy way to convert them into a former customer.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      But if the company itself isn't the actual customer, you don't lose anything by upsetting their legal/marketing team! And if the account's a free trial account, you're not losing any cash even if the individual account owner gets offended on behalf of their employer... The other wheeze for startups with few or no customers who want some recognisable badges on their home page is padding the "we work with" section with logos of companies where they use that company's product rather than vice versa...
      - CharlesW 4y ago
        > But if the company itself isn't the actual customer, you don't lose anything by upsetting their legal/marketing team! Well, those badge-worthy companies can preemptively ban your product as well as future business development/co-marketing opportunities. If you never see yourself having an actual relationship of any kind with those companies, and your ethical bar is that low, then you may decide it's worth it. Certainly, many crypto companies are practicing this form of wishful thinking right now. https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/29/23284330/helium-crypto-mesh-network-lime-salesforce-denials https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/29/23284330/helium-crypto-me...
        skinnymuch 4y ago
        In the scheme of how corrupt and manipulative capitalism in general is, putting up company logos for any reason is far too unimportant to be a low ethical bar. Almost every corporation recognizable enough for their logo to matter are themselves 100x more problematic than their logo being put up

acomjean 4y ago

You are supposed to. Generally its better to ask. If theyre already a customer, there is a good chance someone is going to go to your site and see it. Sometimes it gets wierd, we had a large fast food logo on our site. We had only sold to 5 or so franchises in our area... So it was true but only kindof.

notabanker 4y ago
Thanks for sharing your insight.
willnz 4y ago
> So it was true but only kindof. I'm almost certain that's the case when most of those kinds of logos are shown. Most likely that's 80-90% of what happens when companies show logos on their website. Does Netflix really pay for that many SaaS products? Or is it really that one or two Netflix employees use it...
jeromie 4y ago
If you wanted to piss off the legal team at my large multinational employer and create strong headwinds for any future renewal conversations or more broad adoption for the rest of time, slapping our logo on your front page without asking was a guaranteed way to do it. Our lawyers did not forgive or forget.

eranation 4y ago

In probably 99.9% of cases, at least in the US, the answer is yes. Forget about getting sued, you want the logos in your homepage to be a good reference to future customers. Like you don't put references in your resume without talking to them first... Same idea. But also the legal aspect... some companies will bar you from using their logo, (they could even negotiate a discount if they become "referencable"). The underlying reason is that some companies will not want anyone to know they use vendor X for purpose Y (e.g. Apple). But as I said, forget about the legal aspect, if a prospect sees a logo, they might ask you to setup a reference call (mostly for B2B / Enterprise, but not limited)

notabanker 4y ago
Good to know there's a whole set of actions you have to be prepared for if you list a company's logo -- discounts, set up reference call, etc. Thank you.
- ev1 4y ago
  Some companies don't give you a choice ;) Digitalocean TOS, not changable and required on signup: 2.3 You grant us permission to include your name, logos, and trademarks in our promotional and marketing materials and communications.
  - nrb 4y ago
    The enforceability of that is probably extremely weak, most plainly: does the person agreeing to the TOS have the right to grant permission to use the logos or trademarks?
    - ev1 4y ago
      Yeah, but it's still kind of a shitty move.
      - nrb 4y ago
        I don’t disagree at all :) these sort of scummy clauses deserve more scrutiny.

PassageNick 4y ago

I would not consider putting a logo on my company site without having the permission of said company. At best, it would be presumptuous, at worst, a cause for legal action.

notabanker 4y ago
Thanks for sharing a critical insight.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago

Yes, they need permission. In some cases, the customer will expect a discount, knowing that they're a large customer and that their logo on your startup's website will instill some trust from potential customers and could lead to more sales.

stinkypantsman 4y ago

Most of the time the right to use the logo is included in the contract language (or the customer says that any usage of their logo has to be explicitly approved). Helium (web3 start-up) recently got roasted for using Lime and Salesforce's logos when they were not customers and did not have a relationship with the start-up.

johnobrien1010 4y ago

Legally you do not need permission, it is considered fair use. Business wise and so on is another matter.

ipython 4y ago

Yes. Ask for permission.

vivegi 4y ago

Yes, they should get permission. A company logo is protected by trademarks and copyrights in almost all jursdictions. Companies do not like to see their logos splashed across their vendors' websites, case studies, presentations etc., without their legal/communications teams having a say over that. Most Fortune 500 companies would have this as a standard legal clause in their agreements and require that such requests be made in writing. (This excludes public brand usage guidelines published by companies for including their logos eg: Social media links for FB, Goog, LinkedIn, Instagram etc., and they are covered by the separate terms of use there.) Check your agreement with your client. If it has such a clause related to marketing material (social proof would fall under that), seek their permission as prescribed in your agreement. It may help to get your client liaison on your side by letting them know first. Then wait. It is quite possible that the client may not get back to you. In that case, err on the side of caution and DO NOT use the logo on your website/social proof page. As an alternative, when we made presentations to a small room (of prospective clients, potential investors etc.,) we may include a Top clients roster slide with the logos but mark that specific slide as confidential and show it only within the room and never use it for broader distribution. This practice is easier for your legal team to clear if the parties in the room are under non-disclosure agreements. It may be okay in other circumstances; read the room and use your discretion. Not a lawyer. Source: personal experience.

_odey 4y ago

What about the font awesome brand logos they provide? Can I put them on my personal, or business, website as the "text" part of a link to my profile in their platform? I mean, I already do it, but should I also ask permission to do that? That would be weird since they had to pay font awesome to have their logo included in the font.

gnz11 4y ago

I’ve come across my company’s logo used like this a few times before on startup sites. It made me curious and would ask around if anyone had ever heard of or used said startup. In most cases no one had ever heard of the startup or they were commissioned for some small project that never went anywhere. No one seemed to care though that the logo was being used. I would take those logo lists with a grain of salt.

cupachabra 4y ago

Yes, just make sure you have a clause in you terms and conditions in your website to be able to use all logos of companies signing up.