6 ms·

I am surprised Apple for all its wealth in industrial design and user experience haven't figured out people need a physical cover on their cameras

by rvalue 4y ago

political12345 4y ago
if they added one it would be a form of implicit admittance that the camera is always recording
- azinman2 4y ago
  But it’s not always recording, and few people use a camera cover.
- sebow 4y ago
  Even so, they'd still be better off because at least the option would be there. It's no surprise Apple and other corporations still decide the "best way" for the consumer is to remove options, not keep/add to them.
- userbinator 4y ago
  The same way that adding options is a form of implicit admittance that they don't always know best what their users do? Apple's attitude has always been condescending. Forcing users to fit the product, instead of the other way around. Then again, this totalitarian mentality isn't only confined to Apple. No, if they added one it would show that they actually care about reassuring their users' privacy, instead of merely saying "trust us".
  - pca006132 4y ago
    But people are still using Apple products and seems fine with the totalitarian approach. Perhaps they care more about delivering values to the general customers, e.g. no physical cover for slightly smaller form factor? (if this is the constraint against having a physical cover) Perhaps it's just me, I wonder why would people say that they love open-source while using devices with such a closed ecosystem, using various approaches to make it incompatible other things.
  - hrbf 4y ago
    That may be the case for geeks like us. We’re not Apple’s core customer though. For the vast majority of them, Apple does indeed know better. The iPhone is proof of that. And now that most buttons are controlled by software anyway, where’s the difference to a “physical” button? Better to have a hard-wired camera light that you cannot bypass. Apart from that, not having to choose often feels more liberating than restricting. You’re almost guaranteed to be overwhelmed by options and feel stupid afterwards, no matter what you chose, because there is always a better choice to be made. Ever detailed a new car? It’s paralyzing. Base models are simply base templates. Options creep in. If you allow several, intransparent dependencies appear, frustrate you and soon you expect everything to be completely modular. Better to have a small number of pre-defined, comprehensive packages.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    > Apple's attitude has always been condescending. Forcing users to fit the product, instead of the other way around It's funny because having actually worked at Apple this isn't the case at all. They do a lot of product market research and PMs always read Radar, Feedback Reporter etc. Look at the recent pivots on keyboard, TouchBar, MagSafe, SD card etc. It's more that people such as yourself are being condescending by assuming that your view of the world is the right one and everyone else is wrong. In this case you assume that people (a) don't trust that Apple always shows the indicator light when the camera is on and (b) are willing to accept a thicker device for this feature.
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      Those pivots were only possible once Ive left.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  Not really - if they wanted they could come up with some bullshit marketing it as a "feature" - e.g. "Now with Cover to protect the high resolution retina lens of the camera" etc. I suspect they don't want to include a camera cover, (and would prefer to discourage the practice) so that they can use it to collect more data (lighting, environment etc) and to improve FaceID (hopefully only for those who have enabled it).
  - threeseed 4y ago
    FaceID doesn't exist on the Mac and uses synthetic data for training [1]. And I don't believe anyone on here is talking about camera covers for their phone. [1] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research?page=1&sort=oldest https://machinelearning.apple.com/research?page=1&sort=oldes...
    - webmobdev 4y ago
      I meant for the data - they can use the Camera on the mac to capture the facial features of the user ... daily or weekly captures of the face can certainly help to improve and reach the goals of FaceID: > Face ID automatically adapts to changes in your appearance, such as wearing cosmetic makeup or growing facial hair ... Face ID is designed to work with hats, scarves, glasses, contact lenses, and many sunglasses. Furthermore, it's designed to work indoors, outdoors, and even in total darkness. And to improve features like: > Even if you don’t enroll in Face ID, the TrueDepth camera intelligently activates to support attention aware features, like dimming the display if you aren't looking at your device or lowering the volume of alerts if you're looking at your device. For example, when using Safari, your device checks to determine if you're looking at your device and turns the screen off if you aren’t. If you don’t want to use these features, you can open Settings > Face ID & Passcode and disable Attention Aware Features. ( https://support.apple.com/en-in/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-in/HT208108 ). It can also help to improve facial recognition in photos which Apple has been featuring for some time now in their Photos app.
      - garblegarble 4y ago
        >I meant for the data - they can use the Camera on the mac to capture the facial features of the user ... daily or weekly captures of the face can certainly help to improve and reach the goals of FaceID You're picking a very odd target for this in Apple, who are pretty clear about their attitude on privacy, especially when it comes to cameras and microphones - for instance modern Macs and iPads have hardware disconnects for the microphones[1] when closed & Macs have green indicator LEDs wired into the camera hardware to make it impossible to activate the camera without the light coming on (as noted in the article we're commenting on!) Also, you're still talking about FaceID: the parent comment pointed out that FaceID doesn't exist on the Mac. Craig Federighi was actually asked about FaceID support for the new notch Macs when they were released, and he said that he didn't think there was a benefit vs the TouchID sensor because it'd still be necessary to have the user tap a physical button to confirm actions -- e.g. for purchases or privilege escalation. The camera assembly would also need to be thicker & larger to put the FaceID projector & IR camera in place. On using continuously (and surreptitiously/illegally) captured camera data to improve FaceID's model of the owner for iPhone/iPad: there's just no need to continuously capture - there is already plenty of opportunity to update the face model every time the phone is unlocked. I don't know what the stats on this are but I'd imagine users are unlocking their phones hundreds of times a day. >It can also help to improve facial recognition in photos which Apple has been featuring for some time now in their Photos app. They already have lots of data here from your photos already, and since they're stored in your photo library your Mac has access to them to re-run recognition if needed if an updated version of the Photos app comes with a model update. Not to mention that by using above-board data they are able to get corrections for classification errors (since the user operating/looking at the computer may well not be the account owner). 1: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/web https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/...
- laserlight 4y ago
  No, it would be a privacy feature, just like hardware microphone disconnect is [0]: “All Apple silicon-based Mac notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2 Security Chip feature a hardware disconnect that disables the microphone whenever the lid is closed” [0] https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone-disconnect-secbbd20b00b/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone...
Cockbrand 4y ago
From an industrial designer's perspective (I'm not an industrial designer), a physical camera cover adds moving parts that can break, get stuck or wear out. It also makes the laptop's lid thicker. And it adds some friction to video calls as people would just forget to open the camera cover.
- llampx 4y ago
  Somehow other laptop manufacturers starting with Lenovo have figured it out and are providing built-in physical lens covers.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    Lenovo has a plastic bezel around the screen which makes it easy for them to add this feature [1]. I am not an Industrial Engineer but it would seem much more difficult to do this with glass and not impact the structural integrity of the screen. Having just had my screen be ruined by a micro-fracture I would rather just trust the green indicator dot than be without my laptop for a week. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/lenovo-thinkshutter-laptops-webcam-covers-2018-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/lenovo-thinkshutter-laptops-...
- achow 4y ago
  Exactly. Industrial designers are trained and then paid to solve these kinds of seemingly intractable (to us mere mortals) design problems.
johnywalks 4y ago
I'm surprised you're surprised. Apple has been deviating from good UX little by little every year now.
dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
We are talking about the company that had the "courage" to remove the headphone jack, and my MacBook "Pro" has just two Thunderbolt ports. No USB, no SD, no Ethernet. So I wouldn't try to find any consumer-friendly logic here.
Tagbert 4y ago
You are making the assumption that there is a need for a physical cover. Apple’s solution is a camera with an inline indicator light that is not under app or OS control.

I am surprised Apple for all its wealth in industrial design and user experience haven't figured out people need a physical cover on their cameras

by rvalue 4y ago

I am surprised Apple for all its wealth in industrial design and user experience haven't figured out people need a physical cover on their cameras

political12345 4y ago

if they added one it would be a form of implicit admittance that the camera is always recording

azinman2 4y ago
But it’s not always recording, and few people use a camera cover.
sebow 4y ago
Even so, they'd still be better off because at least the option would be there. It's no surprise Apple and other corporations still decide the "best way" for the consumer is to remove options, not keep/add to them.
userbinator 4y ago
The same way that adding options is a form of implicit admittance that they don't always know best what their users do? Apple's attitude has always been condescending. Forcing users to fit the product, instead of the other way around. Then again, this totalitarian mentality isn't only confined to Apple. No, if they added one it would show that they actually care about reassuring their users' privacy, instead of merely saying "trust us".
- pca006132 4y ago
  But people are still using Apple products and seems fine with the totalitarian approach. Perhaps they care more about delivering values to the general customers, e.g. no physical cover for slightly smaller form factor? (if this is the constraint against having a physical cover) Perhaps it's just me, I wonder why would people say that they love open-source while using devices with such a closed ecosystem, using various approaches to make it incompatible other things.
- hrbf 4y ago
  That may be the case for geeks like us. We’re not Apple’s core customer though. For the vast majority of them, Apple does indeed know better. The iPhone is proof of that. And now that most buttons are controlled by software anyway, where’s the difference to a “physical” button? Better to have a hard-wired camera light that you cannot bypass. Apart from that, not having to choose often feels more liberating than restricting. You’re almost guaranteed to be overwhelmed by options and feel stupid afterwards, no matter what you chose, because there is always a better choice to be made. Ever detailed a new car? It’s paralyzing. Base models are simply base templates. Options creep in. If you allow several, intransparent dependencies appear, frustrate you and soon you expect everything to be completely modular. Better to have a small number of pre-defined, comprehensive packages.
- threeseed 4y ago
  > Apple's attitude has always been condescending. Forcing users to fit the product, instead of the other way around It's funny because having actually worked at Apple this isn't the case at all. They do a lot of product market research and PMs always read Radar, Feedback Reporter etc. Look at the recent pivots on keyboard, TouchBar, MagSafe, SD card etc. It's more that people such as yourself are being condescending by assuming that your view of the world is the right one and everyone else is wrong. In this case you assume that people (a) don't trust that Apple always shows the indicator light when the camera is on and (b) are willing to accept a thicker device for this feature.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Those pivots were only possible once Ive left.
webmobdev 4y ago
Not really - if they wanted they could come up with some bullshit marketing it as a "feature" - e.g. "Now with Cover to protect the high resolution retina lens of the camera" etc. I suspect they don't want to include a camera cover, (and would prefer to discourage the practice) so that they can use it to collect more data (lighting, environment etc) and to improve FaceID (hopefully only for those who have enabled it).
- threeseed 4y ago
  FaceID doesn't exist on the Mac and uses synthetic data for training [1]. And I don't believe anyone on here is talking about camera covers for their phone. [1] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research?page=1&sort=oldest https://machinelearning.apple.com/research?page=1&sort=oldes...
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    I meant for the data - they can use the Camera on the mac to capture the facial features of the user ... daily or weekly captures of the face can certainly help to improve and reach the goals of FaceID: > Face ID automatically adapts to changes in your appearance, such as wearing cosmetic makeup or growing facial hair ... Face ID is designed to work with hats, scarves, glasses, contact lenses, and many sunglasses. Furthermore, it's designed to work indoors, outdoors, and even in total darkness. And to improve features like: > Even if you don’t enroll in Face ID, the TrueDepth camera intelligently activates to support attention aware features, like dimming the display if you aren't looking at your device or lowering the volume of alerts if you're looking at your device. For example, when using Safari, your device checks to determine if you're looking at your device and turns the screen off if you aren’t. If you don’t want to use these features, you can open Settings > Face ID & Passcode and disable Attention Aware Features. ( https://support.apple.com/en-in/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-in/HT208108 ). It can also help to improve facial recognition in photos which Apple has been featuring for some time now in their Photos app.
    - garblegarble 4y ago
      >I meant for the data - they can use the Camera on the mac to capture the facial features of the user ... daily or weekly captures of the face can certainly help to improve and reach the goals of FaceID You're picking a very odd target for this in Apple, who are pretty clear about their attitude on privacy, especially when it comes to cameras and microphones - for instance modern Macs and iPads have hardware disconnects for the microphones[1] when closed & Macs have green indicator LEDs wired into the camera hardware to make it impossible to activate the camera without the light coming on (as noted in the article we're commenting on!) Also, you're still talking about FaceID: the parent comment pointed out that FaceID doesn't exist on the Mac. Craig Federighi was actually asked about FaceID support for the new notch Macs when they were released, and he said that he didn't think there was a benefit vs the TouchID sensor because it'd still be necessary to have the user tap a physical button to confirm actions -- e.g. for purchases or privilege escalation. The camera assembly would also need to be thicker & larger to put the FaceID projector & IR camera in place. On using continuously (and surreptitiously/illegally) captured camera data to improve FaceID's model of the owner for iPhone/iPad: there's just no need to continuously capture - there is already plenty of opportunity to update the face model every time the phone is unlocked. I don't know what the stats on this are but I'd imagine users are unlocking their phones hundreds of times a day. >It can also help to improve facial recognition in photos which Apple has been featuring for some time now in their Photos app. They already have lots of data here from your photos already, and since they're stored in your photo library your Mac has access to them to re-run recognition if needed if an updated version of the Photos app comes with a model update. Not to mention that by using above-board data they are able to get corrections for classification errors (since the user operating/looking at the computer may well not be the account owner). 1: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/web https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/secbbd20b00b/...
laserlight 4y ago
No, it would be a privacy feature, just like hardware microphone disconnect is [0]: “All Apple silicon-based Mac notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2 Security Chip feature a hardware disconnect that disables the microphone whenever the lid is closed” [0] https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone-disconnect-secbbd20b00b/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/hardware-microphone...

Cockbrand 4y ago

From an industrial designer's perspective (I'm not an industrial designer), a physical camera cover adds moving parts that can break, get stuck or wear out. It also makes the laptop's lid thicker. And it adds some friction to video calls as people would just forget to open the camera cover.

llampx 4y ago
Somehow other laptop manufacturers starting with Lenovo have figured it out and are providing built-in physical lens covers.
- threeseed 4y ago
  Lenovo has a plastic bezel around the screen which makes it easy for them to add this feature [1]. I am not an Industrial Engineer but it would seem much more difficult to do this with glass and not impact the structural integrity of the screen. Having just had my screen be ruined by a micro-fracture I would rather just trust the green indicator dot than be without my laptop for a week. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/lenovo-thinkshutter-laptops-webcam-covers-2018-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/lenovo-thinkshutter-laptops-...
achow 4y ago
Exactly. Industrial designers are trained and then paid to solve these kinds of seemingly intractable (to us mere mortals) design problems.

johnywalks 4y ago

I'm surprised you're surprised. Apple has been deviating from good UX little by little every year now.

dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago

We are talking about the company that had the "courage" to remove the headphone jack, and my MacBook "Pro" has just two Thunderbolt ports. No USB, no SD, no Ethernet. So I wouldn't try to find any consumer-friendly logic here.

Tagbert 4y ago

You are making the assumption that there is a need for a physical cover. Apple’s solution is a camera with an inline indicator light that is not under app or OS control.