5 ms·

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not intere

by fruffy 4y ago

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not interested in taking classes. I would either like to teach or work on my research in a collaborative environment with other like-minded peers. Many PhDs are in their late 20s/early 30s, coming from all swaths of life. They are not children. However, in the American education system they are treated as if they were. While this sentiment can have its perks, as shown in the OP, it also means PhDs do not get proper contracts, pay, benefits, or any voice. Thankfully, I managed to maneuver myself into a position that is livable but I frequently talk to other CS PhDs from other American institutions. It is depressing to hear what people have to put up with in their degree. Sure, the PhD requires initial training, but the ramp-up is not so slow that it is necessary to be stuck in the same serf status for 5+ years. Unfortunately, I think this is a systemic issue that is not easy to solve.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be an employee?!
- nautilius 4y ago
  You want to be a PhD employee so that you don't have to pay college out of your own pocket. Sure, most would prefer to be rich, or have their parents be rich, or having gotten a full ride or some other stipend. But that's not the norm for most PhD students. For most, the alternative to not being a PhD student employee is to leave college and become an employee employee.
- bunbunbun 4y ago
  I can say from experience that employees get some protections that students don’t. Particularly when it comes to: - working hours (often paid for 20 but working close to 40) - paid time off (I have worked through a lot of ‘vacations’ and ‘holidays’) - health insurance (for my whole family, not just me) - behavioral requirements for managers (I have stories) - retirement funding - credit for work products (imagine being told your name isn’t on a pub because you were in training)
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    But you're opting into them having more control over you. If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time. Health insurance, behaviours, retirement, etc I guess so.
    - watwut 4y ago
      > If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time. The PhD students I knew did not managed own time. They worked when mandated by supervisor, they worked long hours and vacation meant still working. And they could not go to vacations whenever either.
- fruffy 4y ago
  >Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom 1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. 2) vacations in general are not a thing (it is really important to submit that paper over Christmas). 3) health benefits and family support depend on the whims of the department, any sort of pension plan is unheard of. 4) you sometimes get paid, sometimes not (depending on whether some administrative clerk "forgets" to put you on payroll this term). 5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). 6) as F1 student you are not permitted to find other means of income unless approved by your advisor or department. If they approve, they have to approve every single term (good luck with that). 7) you can try to pursue your own research but then you should also expect to be isolated, receiving no support or feedback from either your lab, peers, or advisor. This is one of the most common stories. Usually, these students just wither away or drop out. These are not isolated issues, mind you. This is pretty common across the board from what I have seen. And all of these issues are tolerable, if you were at least paid a living wage. But commonly the pay you get barely covers the rent in the city you live in. Thankfully, I am in a better position and I have an accommodating advisor, but I still think this is a depressing state of affairs.
  - psi75 4y ago
    5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). Yeah, this is very true, and it's degenerate, because research is a 12-month job and deserves a 12-month salary. It seems to me that academia takes advantage of extremely smart people (and delusional middling-smart people) because it knows they have nowhere else to go. If you're a legit 140+, you're at the level where corporate America becomes to become a non-option because you're just too different, if not necessarily from the other people, from what you are expected to be as a subordinate.
  - 4y ago
- psi75 4y ago
  The problem, I think, stems from the fact that a doctoral advisor, because he influences your reputation in all of academia rather than just one company, is even more of a career SPOF than a corporate manager. The good news is that your advisor is safe (tenured, or at least likely to make tenure) in most circumstances, so he's not going to fuck you over unless he's a truly terrible person, and 90 percent of people aren't, as opposed to the corporate world where the pressure of constantly watching your back turns that middle 80% into bad people as well. The bad news is that he does have this extortive power over you, if he wants to use it. There's also a conflict of interest when it comes to delayed graduations. If the advisor's getting cheap or free grunt work, and delaying your graduation for another year can get him more of said work, then he has an incentive to do so. Of course, this can't be continued forever, because eventually he'll get a reputation for his students taking too long and not doing well... but in the short term, it is an option for him, and it is sometimes exercised.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > If the advisor's getting cheap or free grunt work This is a huge misconception. Yes, as a grad student you aren’t paid well. That doesn’t mean you are cheap for a PI. They have to pay your tuition, as well as university overhead related to your stipend. You don’t see a lot of that money in your bank account, but it is leaving the PI’s research grant nonetheless. The most productive students are those who are about 3 years in when they are done with classes. The least productive ones are those about to graduate; they typically have a serious case of “senioritis”, and are often busy making contacts in industry and planning a career. Keeping them around makes them less productive, not more. Professors want to graduate them to free up resources and to bolster their promotion portfolio.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Being an employee makes it easier to demand fair treatment. As a "student" people can say "of course your pay and benefits are low and hours are terrible, you are a student and are paid in coaching." If you are instead understood to be an employee then suddenly the comparison between working at Target and working as a graduate student becomes harder to ignore and the abusive practices become more clear. There are downsides, like it being important to be able to fire low performers in employee/employer relationships. But thinking of graduate students as skilled knowledge workers makes it easier to agitate for better conditions.
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  >Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? Did you actually do a PhD? You ought to know that you are completely beholden to your advisor, what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc. As an employee you actually have rights, benefits and fairer pay and are under basically identical working circumstances.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc This isn't my experience. A PhD is supposed to be your own research, not your advisor's.
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      Anecdotes aren't very useful but in my department it was pretty clear that most of your work was going to be derivative of your advisors at least tangentially if not directly. Also I think the article and most of the discussion so far has been around experiences in the US' PhD system so I'm not sure experience in the UK is equivalent.
    - bunbunbun 4y ago
      Yeah, it is supposed to be that in theory. But in practice, I had to be trained through multiple research positions doing work for other people, none of whom had managerial experience or training. It was very chaotic and I rarely had time to work on my own research until dissertation.
      - Fomite 4y ago
        A PhD should be, at least in theory. Whether it is or not is a question - and "until dissertation" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Importantly, a staff scientist position will never be. If you cannot tie your project to one of my grants, you are losing me money. For a student, that might be acceptable. For a staff scientist, it's not.
linuxftw 4y ago
> Unfortunately, I think this is a systemic issue that is not easy to solve. It's incredibly easy to solve. Quit your PhD and encourage others to do so as well. You're being used.
- dls2016 4y ago
  Or, you know, unionize like regular workers. (Former UAW-represented PhD student, here.) I then spent some time in the Swiss system as a postdoc... night and day! I went from the "American Riviera" (UCSB) to the "Swiss Riviera" (EPFL), and so living costs were about the same. But PhD students were paid more than twice what I was paid in the US. Also much less teaching at EPFL, but that was probably due to differences in the "type" of institution. (And what is a riviera?!)
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    At UCSB there was a 403b plan set up by the UAW under UC auspices

by fruffy 4y ago

chrisseaton 4y ago

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be an employee?!

nautilius 4y ago
You want to be a PhD employee so that you don't have to pay college out of your own pocket. Sure, most would prefer to be rich, or have their parents be rich, or having gotten a full ride or some other stipend. But that's not the norm for most PhD students. For most, the alternative to not being a PhD student employee is to leave college and become an employee employee.
bunbunbun 4y ago
I can say from experience that employees get some protections that students don’t. Particularly when it comes to: - working hours (often paid for 20 but working close to 40) - paid time off (I have worked through a lot of ‘vacations’ and ‘holidays’) - health insurance (for my whole family, not just me) - behavioral requirements for managers (I have stories) - retirement funding - credit for work products (imagine being told your name isn’t on a pub because you were in training)
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  But you're opting into them having more control over you. If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time. Health insurance, behaviours, retirement, etc I guess so.
  - watwut 4y ago
    > If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time. The PhD students I knew did not managed own time. They worked when mandated by supervisor, they worked long hours and vacation meant still working. And they could not go to vacations whenever either.
fruffy 4y ago
>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom 1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. 2) vacations in general are not a thing (it is really important to submit that paper over Christmas). 3) health benefits and family support depend on the whims of the department, any sort of pension plan is unheard of. 4) you sometimes get paid, sometimes not (depending on whether some administrative clerk "forgets" to put you on payroll this term). 5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). 6) as F1 student you are not permitted to find other means of income unless approved by your advisor or department. If they approve, they have to approve every single term (good luck with that). 7) you can try to pursue your own research but then you should also expect to be isolated, receiving no support or feedback from either your lab, peers, or advisor. This is one of the most common stories. Usually, these students just wither away or drop out. These are not isolated issues, mind you. This is pretty common across the board from what I have seen. And all of these issues are tolerable, if you were at least paid a living wage. But commonly the pay you get barely covers the rent in the city you live in. Thankfully, I am in a better position and I have an accommodating advisor, but I still think this is a depressing state of affairs.
- psi75 4y ago
  5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). Yeah, this is very true, and it's degenerate, because research is a 12-month job and deserves a 12-month salary. It seems to me that academia takes advantage of extremely smart people (and delusional middling-smart people) because it knows they have nowhere else to go. If you're a legit 140+, you're at the level where corporate America becomes to become a non-option because you're just too different, if not necessarily from the other people, from what you are expected to be as a subordinate.
- 4y ago
psi75 4y ago
The problem, I think, stems from the fact that a doctoral advisor, because he influences your reputation in all of academia rather than just one company, is even more of a career SPOF than a corporate manager. The good news is that your advisor is safe (tenured, or at least likely to make tenure) in most circumstances, so he's not going to fuck you over unless he's a truly terrible person, and 90 percent of people aren't, as opposed to the corporate world where the pressure of constantly watching your back turns that middle 80% into bad people as well. The bad news is that he does have this extortive power over you, if he wants to use it. There's also a conflict of interest when it comes to delayed graduations. If the advisor's getting cheap or free grunt work, and delaying your graduation for another year can get him more of said work, then he has an incentive to do so. Of course, this can't be continued forever, because eventually he'll get a reputation for his students taking too long and not doing well... but in the short term, it is an option for him, and it is sometimes exercised.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > If the advisor's getting cheap or free grunt work This is a huge misconception. Yes, as a grad student you aren’t paid well. That doesn’t mean you are cheap for a PI. They have to pay your tuition, as well as university overhead related to your stipend. You don’t see a lot of that money in your bank account, but it is leaving the PI’s research grant nonetheless. The most productive students are those who are about 3 years in when they are done with classes. The least productive ones are those about to graduate; they typically have a serious case of “senioritis”, and are often busy making contacts in industry and planning a career. Keeping them around makes them less productive, not more. Professors want to graduate them to free up resources and to bolster their promotion portfolio.
UncleMeat 4y ago
Being an employee makes it easier to demand fair treatment. As a "student" people can say "of course your pay and benefits are low and hours are terrible, you are a student and are paid in coaching." If you are instead understood to be an employee then suddenly the comparison between working at Target and working as a graduate student becomes harder to ignore and the abusive practices become more clear. There are downsides, like it being important to be able to fire low performers in employee/employer relationships. But thinking of graduate students as skilled knowledge workers makes it easier to agitate for better conditions.
adamsmith143 4y ago
>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? Did you actually do a PhD? You ought to know that you are completely beholden to your advisor, what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc. As an employee you actually have rights, benefits and fairer pay and are under basically identical working circumstances.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc This isn't my experience. A PhD is supposed to be your own research, not your advisor's.
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    Anecdotes aren't very useful but in my department it was pretty clear that most of your work was going to be derivative of your advisors at least tangentially if not directly. Also I think the article and most of the discussion so far has been around experiences in the US' PhD system so I'm not sure experience in the UK is equivalent.
  - bunbunbun 4y ago
    Yeah, it is supposed to be that in theory. But in practice, I had to be trained through multiple research positions doing work for other people, none of whom had managerial experience or training. It was very chaotic and I rarely had time to work on my own research until dissertation.
    - Fomite 4y ago
      A PhD should be, at least in theory. Whether it is or not is a question - and "until dissertation" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Importantly, a staff scientist position will never be. If you cannot tie your project to one of my grants, you are losing me money. For a student, that might be acceptable. For a staff scientist, it's not.

linuxftw 4y ago

> Unfortunately, I think this is a systemic issue that is not easy to solve. It's incredibly easy to solve. Quit your PhD and encourage others to do so as well. You're being used.

dls2016 4y ago
Or, you know, unionize like regular workers. (Former UAW-represented PhD student, here.) I then spent some time in the Swiss system as a postdoc... night and day! I went from the "American Riviera" (UCSB) to the "Swiss Riviera" (EPFL), and so living costs were about the same. But PhD students were paid more than twice what I was paid in the US. Also much less teaching at EPFL, but that was probably due to differences in the "type" of institution. (And what is a riviera?!)
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  At UCSB there was a 403b plan set up by the UAW under UC auspices