6 ms·

That’s all it is, they ran into an engineering problem and they’re trying to get the world to bend to their will instead of solving the problem because they thi

by gnu8 4y ago

That’s all it is, they ran into an engineering problem and they’re trying to get the world to bend to their will instead of solving the problem because they think it will be easier. Mark’s arrogance is nauseating.

easytiger 4y ago
Now expand this reasoning far beyond the scope of time keeping. Big Tech companies/Anti Big Tech lobbyists massively oversimplify in their pitch to influential people to deregulate/overregulate certain areas. In both cases they end up making poor decisions for the general case both end up making the average case worse for everyone except themselves. It's about creating a market where none need exist. Facebook doesn't need to care about time really. It's not remotely important to their business. I've built and worked on platforms with sub microsecond measuring requirements and this stuff didn't bother me. This is idle bad money finding work for itself at the expense of everyone else. Disclosure: I am/was an early investor in facebook in 2012. Mark is turning it all to dirt because he's run out of ideas
jjoonathan 4y ago
> arrogance is nauseating Right back atcha. We have three alternative time systems and a big bag of issues with each of them, but you think the extremely mundane argument that we should prefer one bag represents nauseating arrogance because you think that your favorite bag -- a different one -- is obviously correct? Come on. Do better. Be civil.
- Veserv 4y ago
  FB is not making the mundane argument that we should pick one time system over another. They are literally proposing that the world should redefine UTC to be TAI with a permanent fixed offset, which is functionally equivalent to just using TAI. That is effectively proposing the deletion of the most commonly used time system of the three primary time systems from existence and forcing everybody and all existing systems that use it to convert to what is effectively TAI. That is not mundane. Mundane is arguing that everybody should use TAI. Arrogant is arguing that we should force everyone to do it by redefining their dependencies under them.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    That is the smallest change that eliminates all the pain. Arrogant is imposing a big nuisance on everyone every year or two. It is not arrogant to ask for a nuisance affecting millions to be dropped.
    - Veserv 4y ago
      No, it is a change that breaks everybody using UTC correctly, TAI with a offset to synchronize with UT1, in order to fix everybody who did not know what they were doing and used UTC when they actually wanted TAI. If there was a scheme that fixed only the wrong usages, that would be fine. But, it is frankly absurd that we should even consider breaking carefully designed programs correctly using their dependencies to fix programs incorrectly using their dependencies especially when it is trivial for the wrong usages to be fixed manually.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        They will still be using UTC. Just, without bugs that show up every year or two. Not announcing any more leap seconds will break exactly nothing.
        Veserv 4y ago
        No, UTC is TAI kept in sync with UT1. Changing UTC to being TAI with a offset is a fundamental breaking change in what it means. Anybody relying on UTC doing what it is designed and advertised to do, keep in sync with UT1, will be broken. The only people who will not be broken are people using UTC incorrectly as TAI. The only reason this is interesting is that basically everybody uses UTC incorrectly as TAI, but that is not a valid excuse to break the programs using it correctly. People using the wrong dependency should fix their system to use the right dependency. They should not campaign to steal the name and replace it, that is absurd.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        Literally nobody depends on any relationship between UTC and overhead sun angle. The only people who care or need to do not use UTC. They use TAI, and a separate continuous log of fractional seconds. UTC has one role, and that is Standard worldwide civil time. Telling people who need Standard civil time to use TAI makes everything strictly worse: not only do you then not match most of the world, but you still have to track irregular, unpredictable corrections to be able to sync with everybody else.

by gnu8 4y ago

easytiger 4y ago

Now expand this reasoning far beyond the scope of time keeping. Big Tech companies/Anti Big Tech lobbyists massively oversimplify in their pitch to influential people to deregulate/overregulate certain areas. In both cases they end up making poor decisions for the general case both end up making the average case worse for everyone except themselves. It's about creating a market where none need exist. Facebook doesn't need to care about time really. It's not remotely important to their business. I've built and worked on platforms with sub microsecond measuring requirements and this stuff didn't bother me. This is idle bad money finding work for itself at the expense of everyone else. Disclosure: I am/was an early investor in facebook in 2012. Mark is turning it all to dirt because he's run out of ideas

jjoonathan 4y ago

> arrogance is nauseating Right back atcha. We have three alternative time systems and a big bag of issues with each of them, but you think the extremely mundane argument that we should prefer one bag represents nauseating arrogance because you think that your favorite bag -- a different one -- is obviously correct? Come on. Do better. Be civil.

Veserv 4y ago
FB is not making the mundane argument that we should pick one time system over another. They are literally proposing that the world should redefine UTC to be TAI with a permanent fixed offset, which is functionally equivalent to just using TAI. That is effectively proposing the deletion of the most commonly used time system of the three primary time systems from existence and forcing everybody and all existing systems that use it to convert to what is effectively TAI. That is not mundane. Mundane is arguing that everybody should use TAI. Arrogant is arguing that we should force everyone to do it by redefining their dependencies under them.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  That is the smallest change that eliminates all the pain. Arrogant is imposing a big nuisance on everyone every year or two. It is not arrogant to ask for a nuisance affecting millions to be dropped.
  - Veserv 4y ago
    No, it is a change that breaks everybody using UTC correctly, TAI with a offset to synchronize with UT1, in order to fix everybody who did not know what they were doing and used UTC when they actually wanted TAI. If there was a scheme that fixed only the wrong usages, that would be fine. But, it is frankly absurd that we should even consider breaking carefully designed programs correctly using their dependencies to fix programs incorrectly using their dependencies especially when it is trivial for the wrong usages to be fixed manually.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      They will still be using UTC. Just, without bugs that show up every year or two. Not announcing any more leap seconds will break exactly nothing.
      - Veserv 4y ago
        No, UTC is TAI kept in sync with UT1. Changing UTC to being TAI with a offset is a fundamental breaking change in what it means. Anybody relying on UTC doing what it is designed and advertised to do, keep in sync with UT1, will be broken. The only people who will not be broken are people using UTC incorrectly as TAI. The only reason this is interesting is that basically everybody uses UTC incorrectly as TAI, but that is not a valid excuse to break the programs using it correctly. People using the wrong dependency should fix their system to use the right dependency. They should not campaign to steal the name and replace it, that is absurd.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        Literally nobody depends on any relationship between UTC and overhead sun angle. The only people who care or need to do not use UTC. They use TAI, and a separate continuous log of fractional seconds. UTC has one role, and that is Standard worldwide civil time. Telling people who need Standard civil time to use TAI makes everything strictly worse: not only do you then not match most of the world, but you still have to track irregular, unpredictable corrections to be able to sync with everybody else.