6 ms·

Yes, but do customers want plugin-hybrids instead of fully electric?

eulers_secret 4y ago
As an apartment dweller, I would want a regular hybrid. So would the folks I know who only have street parking. For many of us, electric or plugin just strait-up aren't an option. We get forgotten about all the time, but lots of us exist!
- ericd 4y ago
  The streets of Paris have lots of chargers along the sidewalks, seems like cities elsewhere should be able to pull that off as well. Doesn’t even need to be high powered if they’re intended to be parked at overnight.
  - burntoutfire 4y ago
    There'd have to be charger every 5-6 meters or so along most sidewalks where I live to make electric viable. Certainly not impossible, but sounds like an absolutely massive investment.
    - stevage 4y ago
      Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot?
      - logifail 4y ago
        > Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot? Do old school parking meters (one per parking space) still exist, and if so, why? One ticket machine can sell paper parking tickets for 10s or 100s of parking spaces. Some modern machines even avoid the printed ticket entirely and allocate the payment to the number plate of your vehicle.
      - erik_seaberg 4y ago
        No meters in neighborhoods around here, just painted curbs. I only see meters on very dense downtown blocks, and many seem to be solar powered (which seems feasible for an LCD and a card slot).
      - burntoutfire 4y ago
        In my city, there's maybe a parking meter for every 20 spots. Plus, most spots are in non-metered areas. PLUS, the meter does not require a very high voltage power line...
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - bluGill 4y ago
        The vast majority of parking spaces are free and don't have any meters at all. Sure downtown there is parking meters, but not in the suburbs where free parking is the norm and most parking spaces go weeks between seeing anyone park in them.
- coryrc 4y ago
  This is why we need charging at where you park for work. Or build densely and pedestrian-friendly enough you don't need any car.
Gravityloss 4y ago
If it's a lot cheaper for similar range, yes. Or if it has better range for same price (ie compared to a small battery electric car). It depends on your driving profile. For most of the year, I do small trips, below 50 km per day. Then I do maybe 10 200-400 km trips a year. I could get maybe 80% electric kilometers with a modest plugin hybrid.
- seneca 4y ago
  The biggest concern I've heard for hybrids is lifetime maintenance cost. You have both the legacy ICE and transmission, as well as electrical components to maintain. That's a major hypothetical disadvantage to all electric. Does anyone have numbers for this?
  - twblalock 4y ago
    Toyota Priuses have been sold for over 20 years (closer to 25 actually!) and they are very reliable. There are Prius taxis with half a million miles on the original battery.
  - jointpdf 4y ago
    This is a great site for long-term reliability data on many cars: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html. The Prius has the highest reliability score of any compact in their list. This explains where the data and scores come from: http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/ http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/
- twblalock 4y ago
  Plug-in hybrids are in a weird spot in the market. People who have access to home charging can buy long-range EVs which are much nicer to drive. People without access to home charging can buy non-plug-in hybrids or gas-powered cars. Most plug-in hybrids cost a bit more than the non-plug-in versions of the same car and their battery-only driving range is quite short. No matter where you are in the car market, plug-in hybrids are a weird compromise, delivering all the slowness of a hybrid and the requirement to have access to charging like an EV, for more money than a normal hybrid car.
eliseumds 4y ago
In emerging markets, hybrids are a much smarter choice. Here in Brazil there are few fast chargers (say 40kW+), and a great bunch of them are broken anyway. My next car will be a plug-in hybrid. Maybe an electric in 10 years.
- ericd 4y ago
  You don’t really need fast chargers if your overnight spot has any charging. Ours has been charged almost exclusively on a standard US 120V 15A household outlet - 5 miles/hr of range, but it’s parked for >14 hours a day, so it regains 70+ miles overnight.
  - moffkalast 4y ago
    Bold of you to assume you won't run out of capacity half a day into your trip lol. At least that's what my calculations usually show.
    - ericd 4y ago
      Oh well yeah, for road trips it’s different. But for day to day, 70 miles of charging (on a 300 mile range battery) is enough to keep it so it’s usually topped up, and after a longer day trip where it’s not enough, it’ll get back to full over a few days.
  - eliseumds 4y ago
    I don't really need the car on a daily basis, mostly for road trips, and, like the US, Brazil has continental proportions (we think in thousands of kms). The BMW iX is very impressive, there are videos of it doing Sao Paulo > Rio, and half of the way back, without a charge, which is amazing, but that's a best-case path with a considerable number of chargers. Still very pricey though.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Indeed the infrastructure's just not there yet in most places, and not just Brazil, it sucks basically everywhere. PHEVs can be charged at home and should have enough battery range for those short daily errands across town, while having the range of a normal ICE car for long trips where the lack of fast chargers is most critical. Plus they'll break down more due to higher complexity and the repair shops will love and lobby for them so win-win-win.
01100011 4y ago
I love my EV, but I'll be switching to a hybrid when the lease is up. EVs are great but charging is currently a pain. I have no doubt I'll switch back to an EV in a few years, but right now, they're not worth it to me.

As an apartment dweller, I would want a regular hybrid. So would the folks I know who only have street parking. For many of us, electric or plugin just strait-up aren't an option. We get forgotten about all the time, but lots of us exist!

ericd 4y ago
The streets of Paris have lots of chargers along the sidewalks, seems like cities elsewhere should be able to pull that off as well. Doesn’t even need to be high powered if they’re intended to be parked at overnight.
- burntoutfire 4y ago
  There'd have to be charger every 5-6 meters or so along most sidewalks where I live to make electric viable. Certainly not impossible, but sounds like an absolutely massive investment.
  - stevage 4y ago
    Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot?
    - logifail 4y ago
      > Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot? Do old school parking meters (one per parking space) still exist, and if so, why? One ticket machine can sell paper parking tickets for 10s or 100s of parking spaces. Some modern machines even avoid the printed ticket entirely and allocate the payment to the number plate of your vehicle.
    - erik_seaberg 4y ago
      No meters in neighborhoods around here, just painted curbs. I only see meters on very dense downtown blocks, and many seem to be solar powered (which seems feasible for an LCD and a card slot).
    - burntoutfire 4y ago
      In my city, there's maybe a parking meter for every 20 spots. Plus, most spots are in non-metered areas. PLUS, the meter does not require a very high voltage power line...
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - bluGill 4y ago
      The vast majority of parking spaces are free and don't have any meters at all. Sure downtown there is parking meters, but not in the suburbs where free parking is the norm and most parking spaces go weeks between seeing anyone park in them.
coryrc 4y ago
This is why we need charging at where you park for work. Or build densely and pedestrian-friendly enough you don't need any car.

Gravityloss 4y ago

If it's a lot cheaper for similar range, yes. Or if it has better range for same price (ie compared to a small battery electric car). It depends on your driving profile. For most of the year, I do small trips, below 50 km per day. Then I do maybe 10 200-400 km trips a year. I could get maybe 80% electric kilometers with a modest plugin hybrid.

seneca 4y ago
The biggest concern I've heard for hybrids is lifetime maintenance cost. You have both the legacy ICE and transmission, as well as electrical components to maintain. That's a major hypothetical disadvantage to all electric. Does anyone have numbers for this?
- twblalock 4y ago
  Toyota Priuses have been sold for over 20 years (closer to 25 actually!) and they are very reliable. There are Prius taxis with half a million miles on the original battery.
- jointpdf 4y ago
  This is a great site for long-term reliability data on many cars: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html. The Prius has the highest reliability score of any compact in their list. This explains where the data and scores come from: http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/ http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/
twblalock 4y ago
Plug-in hybrids are in a weird spot in the market. People who have access to home charging can buy long-range EVs which are much nicer to drive. People without access to home charging can buy non-plug-in hybrids or gas-powered cars. Most plug-in hybrids cost a bit more than the non-plug-in versions of the same car and their battery-only driving range is quite short. No matter where you are in the car market, plug-in hybrids are a weird compromise, delivering all the slowness of a hybrid and the requirement to have access to charging like an EV, for more money than a normal hybrid car.

eliseumds 4y ago

In emerging markets, hybrids are a much smarter choice. Here in Brazil there are few fast chargers (say 40kW+), and a great bunch of them are broken anyway. My next car will be a plug-in hybrid. Maybe an electric in 10 years.

ericd 4y ago
You don’t really need fast chargers if your overnight spot has any charging. Ours has been charged almost exclusively on a standard US 120V 15A household outlet - 5 miles/hr of range, but it’s parked for >14 hours a day, so it regains 70+ miles overnight.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Bold of you to assume you won't run out of capacity half a day into your trip lol. At least that's what my calculations usually show.
  - ericd 4y ago
    Oh well yeah, for road trips it’s different. But for day to day, 70 miles of charging (on a 300 mile range battery) is enough to keep it so it’s usually topped up, and after a longer day trip where it’s not enough, it’ll get back to full over a few days.
- eliseumds 4y ago
  I don't really need the car on a daily basis, mostly for road trips, and, like the US, Brazil has continental proportions (we think in thousands of kms). The BMW iX is very impressive, there are videos of it doing Sao Paulo > Rio, and half of the way back, without a charge, which is amazing, but that's a best-case path with a considerable number of chargers. Still very pricey though.
moffkalast 4y ago
Indeed the infrastructure's just not there yet in most places, and not just Brazil, it sucks basically everywhere. PHEVs can be charged at home and should have enough battery range for those short daily errands across town, while having the range of a normal ICE car for long trips where the lack of fast chargers is most critical. Plus they'll break down more due to higher complexity and the repair shops will love and lobby for them so win-win-win.

01100011 4y ago

I love my EV, but I'll be switching to a hybrid when the lease is up. EVs are great but charging is currently a pain. I have no doubt I'll switch back to an EV in a few years, but right now, they're not worth it to me.