5 ms·

It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some

It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pempem 4y ago
While most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body. There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is. Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  The thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better. At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.
  - bko 4y ago
    When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you. > especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution What do you think is more likely to still be relevant in 100 years from now, China or Facebook? I think a 'revolution' is more likely to affect Facebook than China
    - echaozh 4y ago
      Hmm, you know corporations can run prisons, and they can fight in wars with mercenaries.
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      > When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you I wonder. If your product is used to recruit soldiers, spread propaganda, disseminate hate speech, and organize and deploy said concentration camps or their equivalent, are you liable and culpable? If you've known for years and done next to nothing about sectarian violence and genocide, are you still blameless? When moderation could have been hired and trained for an immaterial amount of profit? SEA wages are notoriously low in dollar terms. Poorly implemented machine learning models don't suffice to halt genocide. Greed, ignorance, malevolence, sloth, arrogance. Take your pick. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fails-detect-hate-rohingya-83576729 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fail... https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/rohingya-facebook-hate-speech/ https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/r... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...
  - dnissley 4y ago
    If a security hole was found in Google and in the US government, which do you think would respond in a way that would make that less likely to happen in the future?
  - arroz 4y ago
    government is not always bad However government knowing about your private stuff is Homophobic governments shouldn’t know about gay peoples privacy Christian governments shouldn’t know about women’s abortion The government can help, it shouldn’t get in the way — which is very much what can do under a dictatorship
  - pempem 4y ago
    I would strongly disagree It is not that government = bad. It is that government having data which allows for influence of people == destruction of democracy as the government is supposed to reflect the will of people rather than the other way around. It is an incredibly short path to: autocracy, oligarchies, dictatorships, etc.
- alfiedotwtf 4y ago
  > these are largely still separate actors from the US government Yes they're separate actors, but programs like PRISM suggest that they're still on a very short leash
  - sneak 4y ago
    Not just PRISM: Apple has actually been (presumably) forced to not publish e2e encryption software that the feds didn't want deployed, an example of prior restraint that is blatantly unconstitutional. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
    - pempem 4y ago
      Completely. So much of this framing however is being pushed/forced/rulings or judgement driven decisions. You get the sense that TikTok is like "cool, yeah, we'll add that to our roadmap"
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Just because the chinese oligarchs give themselves government titles and the US oligarchs do not is no reason to believe they're not the ones in control.
  - pempem 4y ago
    Love this point. So true, and so accurate. That being said they are also highly disparate with a variety of motivations and are incredibly hard to whip (using this the way its used in congress) into directions that are nuanced. Things like "we wanna make more money" "regulations/unions are bad" ofc oligarchs in the US manage to see eye to eye on, but anything further nuanced - that class discipline - is harder to achieve in the US than China
bko 4y ago
I think there's a difference between a private company having my data and an adversarial government. The company has a clear motive, profit. They're lawful neutral. An adversarial government may be chaotic evil. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? And that's even with Facebook's earnest effort to prevent these things. With this company, there's a direct tie in with an adversarial government. Yes, ideally I don't want anyone to have my data, but lets not pretend Zuck and CCP are the same thing
- Ozzie_osman 4y ago
  > Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? Yes, if by everyone you mean Americans, because their country was the target. There are many countries where media has been manipulated by the CIA, too.
  - arroz 4y ago
    If you think Russia has only meddled with American election, you are crazy
- Miner49er 4y ago
  I'm the opposite. I would much rather have the CCP have my data then a US based company like FB. Unless I travel to China, what are the CCP going to do to the average American with their data? Whereas, in the US, the data could be used in the future to prosecute me for my political views or whatever with law changes.
  - gsatic 4y ago
    Cool pov. Take my upvote. But of course never going to happen. Tribal instincts, schizmogenisis etc
  - bko 4y ago
    The CCP could be actively trying to get you hate your neighbor and spread disinformation. That could be a byproduct of either group, but it is more likely to be an explicit goal of CCP. Here's a gem from the WHO in January 2020. This was almost certainly known to be a lie to the CCP based on their actions at the time > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China. https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152 https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152
phyrex 4y ago
How are they “The Enemy”? Are they coming and killing Americans or is it just generic xenophobia?
- vinyl7 4y ago
  Economic enemy
  - sumnole 4y ago
    This just isn't true for anyone but die hard nationalists. The average citizen has no reason to care what country their products and services are coming from. It's better that the world trade and communicate beyond borders. Calls for banning Tik Tok are coming from people afraid of fair international competition.
- jes 4y ago
  I found this[1] report (PDF) from the DEA: "Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States. Seizures of fentanyl sourced from China average less than one kilogram in weight, and often test above 90 percent concentration of pure fentanyl." Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. 1. https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r
  - burntbridge 4y ago
    >Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. Presumably, if the United States wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance from the China. Just changed the wording a little to show the bias in this sentence. Why do think China would be more successful than the U.S. in prohibiting illegal drugs?
    - 4y ago
DavidSharff 4y ago
I agree about the contradictions and hypocrisy but the answer can be much more pragmatic: > As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"? There's problems with US big tech and TikTok but the case against TikTok is easier to push through. There's nothing wrong with patching the first of many holes in your roof and starting with the one easiest to get to. --------- My primary emotional and ethical driver is to point out my own government (the US) not living up to its marketing material, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't support eliminating a vector for another (openly autocratic) government to meddle with my country as well. Edit: distinguish my reply to prior comment from my ramblings about my reply.

It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pempem 4y ago

While most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body. There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is. Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
The thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better. At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.
- bko 4y ago
  When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you. > especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution What do you think is more likely to still be relevant in 100 years from now, China or Facebook? I think a 'revolution' is more likely to affect Facebook than China
  - echaozh 4y ago
    Hmm, you know corporations can run prisons, and they can fight in wars with mercenaries.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    > When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you I wonder. If your product is used to recruit soldiers, spread propaganda, disseminate hate speech, and organize and deploy said concentration camps or their equivalent, are you liable and culpable? If you've known for years and done next to nothing about sectarian violence and genocide, are you still blameless? When moderation could have been hired and trained for an immaterial amount of profit? SEA wages are notoriously low in dollar terms. Poorly implemented machine learning models don't suffice to halt genocide. Greed, ignorance, malevolence, sloth, arrogance. Take your pick. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fails-detect-hate-rohingya-83576729 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fail... https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/rohingya-facebook-hate-speech/ https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/r... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...
- dnissley 4y ago
  If a security hole was found in Google and in the US government, which do you think would respond in a way that would make that less likely to happen in the future?
- arroz 4y ago
  government is not always bad However government knowing about your private stuff is Homophobic governments shouldn’t know about gay peoples privacy Christian governments shouldn’t know about women’s abortion The government can help, it shouldn’t get in the way — which is very much what can do under a dictatorship
- pempem 4y ago
  I would strongly disagree It is not that government = bad. It is that government having data which allows for influence of people == destruction of democracy as the government is supposed to reflect the will of people rather than the other way around. It is an incredibly short path to: autocracy, oligarchies, dictatorships, etc.
alfiedotwtf 4y ago
> these are largely still separate actors from the US government Yes they're separate actors, but programs like PRISM suggest that they're still on a very short leash
- sneak 4y ago
  Not just PRISM: Apple has actually been (presumably) forced to not publish e2e encryption software that the feds didn't want deployed, an example of prior restraint that is blatantly unconstitutional. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
  - pempem 4y ago
    Completely. So much of this framing however is being pushed/forced/rulings or judgement driven decisions. You get the sense that TikTok is like "cool, yeah, we'll add that to our roadmap"
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Just because the chinese oligarchs give themselves government titles and the US oligarchs do not is no reason to believe they're not the ones in control.
- pempem 4y ago
  Love this point. So true, and so accurate. That being said they are also highly disparate with a variety of motivations and are incredibly hard to whip (using this the way its used in congress) into directions that are nuanced. Things like "we wanna make more money" "regulations/unions are bad" ofc oligarchs in the US manage to see eye to eye on, but anything further nuanced - that class discipline - is harder to achieve in the US than China

bko 4y ago

I think there's a difference between a private company having my data and an adversarial government. The company has a clear motive, profit. They're lawful neutral. An adversarial government may be chaotic evil. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? And that's even with Facebook's earnest effort to prevent these things. With this company, there's a direct tie in with an adversarial government. Yes, ideally I don't want anyone to have my data, but lets not pretend Zuck and CCP are the same thing

Ozzie_osman 4y ago
> Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? Yes, if by everyone you mean Americans, because their country was the target. There are many countries where media has been manipulated by the CIA, too.
- arroz 4y ago
  If you think Russia has only meddled with American election, you are crazy
Miner49er 4y ago
I'm the opposite. I would much rather have the CCP have my data then a US based company like FB. Unless I travel to China, what are the CCP going to do to the average American with their data? Whereas, in the US, the data could be used in the future to prosecute me for my political views or whatever with law changes.
- gsatic 4y ago
  Cool pov. Take my upvote. But of course never going to happen. Tribal instincts, schizmogenisis etc
- bko 4y ago
  The CCP could be actively trying to get you hate your neighbor and spread disinformation. That could be a byproduct of either group, but it is more likely to be an explicit goal of CCP. Here's a gem from the WHO in January 2020. This was almost certainly known to be a lie to the CCP based on their actions at the time > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China. https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152 https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152

phyrex 4y ago

How are they “The Enemy”? Are they coming and killing Americans or is it just generic xenophobia?

vinyl7 4y ago
Economic enemy
- sumnole 4y ago
  This just isn't true for anyone but die hard nationalists. The average citizen has no reason to care what country their products and services are coming from. It's better that the world trade and communicate beyond borders. Calls for banning Tik Tok are coming from people afraid of fair international competition.
jes 4y ago
I found this[1] report (PDF) from the DEA: "Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States. Seizures of fentanyl sourced from China average less than one kilogram in weight, and often test above 90 percent concentration of pure fentanyl." Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. 1. https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r
- burntbridge 4y ago
  >Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. Presumably, if the United States wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance from the China. Just changed the wording a little to show the bias in this sentence. Why do think China would be more successful than the U.S. in prohibiting illegal drugs?
  - 4y ago

DavidSharff 4y ago

I agree about the contradictions and hypocrisy but the answer can be much more pragmatic: > As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"? There's problems with US big tech and TikTok but the case against TikTok is easier to push through. There's nothing wrong with patching the first of many holes in your roof and starting with the one easiest to get to. --------- My primary emotional and ethical driver is to point out my own government (the US) not living up to its marketing material, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't support eliminating a vector for another (openly autocratic) government to meddle with my country as well. Edit: distinguish my reply to prior comment from my ramblings about my reply.