9 ms·
Wasn't it an internal letter that was leaked? I mean sure, being leaked is a predictable consequence, but it may be a distinction with a difference if the criti
by justinph 4y ago
Wasn't it an internal letter that was leaked? I mean sure, being leaked is a predictable consequence, but it may be a distinction with a difference if the criticizers didn't themselves leak it.
Regardless, will be interesting to see how this plays out. If I were one of those employees, I'd be talking to a lawyer. If I was one of the employees still working at SpaceX, I'd be talking about a union. We recently unionized at my employer, it is great to know we have each other's back.
- Justin_K 4y agoGetting fired for insubordination isn't a protected class. The former employees don't have a case.
- daenz 4y ago>insubordination isn't a protected class If some of the comments in this thread is any indicator, people seem to believe it should be a protected class, which is extremely disturbing.
- Justin_K 4y agoMy point is whether or not they have a legal case, not if their letter is true or false.
- stefan_ 4y agoThat's funny, because you may very well be wrong on your main point then! I guess the problem starts when you use terms like "protected class" that don't remotely apply; it gives off an ignorant vibe. Meanwhile, employees acting in concert to complain about working conditions are of course protected by the law; Shotwell, Musks little minion, doesn't help the case when she calls it activism.
- throw457 4y ago
- daenz 4y agoCan you be more specific about what you mean?
- djenendik 4y ago20th century history my friend.
- daenz 4y agoI'm aware of the origins of the phrase. "Who is it being applied to here and why" is what I'd like to know.
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoThey’re comparing SpaceX employees to Nazis.
- pc86 4y agoWhat exactly are you arguing? Under what conditions can you be told to do something, you refuse, and you get fired?
- nvr219 4y agoHN comments are not indicators of anything close to representing "people" in general.
- Aeolun 4y agoMaybe it’s more that they hold leadership to a higher standard than the playground bullies in elementary school?
- FireBeyond 4y ago
- throwaway894345 4y agoThere should probably be a citation here. Even if it's true, I don't know how this is relevant--I was bullied by a lot of people when we were children, but I don't imagine that they are still bullies today because people often mature in adolescence and early adulthood.
- natch 4y agoWhere did you hear about this?
- meatsauce 4y agoHe made it up.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- natch 4y agoOr maybe they unthinkingly and blindly accept anything negative they hear, regurgitating it with confidence that they could not possibly be mistaken because it confirms their biases and validates their life choices.
- meatsauce 4y ago
- 4y ago
- TrinaryWorksToo 4y agoTo an extent it can be a protected class (and this may even be protected) https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/employee-rights https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
- Justin_K 4y agoEverything I read about the letter was addressing Musk's behavior and was not related to the formation of a union. Again, my point is merely whether or not law was violated in their firings.
- tamcap 4y agoquoting: "A few examples of protected concerted activities are: Two or more employees addressing their employer about improving their pay. Two or more employees discussing work-related issues beyond pay, such as safety concerns, with each other. An employee speaking to an employer on behalf of one or more co-workers about improving workplace conditions." Would that letter fall under that? I think there is at least a somewhat credible claim it could (and also a credible opposing counterclaim that the form of speech was meant to be defamatory/disparaging, and not a protected activity), but I am not a lawyer.
- dmatech 4y agoWhat he says on his personal Twitter account (unless it's on behalf of the employer) is not a "workplace" concern. There's no right for workers to not have an off-the-job embarrassment as a CEO. Perhaps there is for investors, but that's another concern with different remediations.
- TheCoelacanth 4y agoYour boss's conduct is absolutely part of your workplace conditions. Public figures do not have the luxury of maintaining a strict separation between their working and private lives.
- 4y ago
- celticninja 4y agoCaveat: IN THE USA some countries have decent labour laws that won't crucify you for disagreeing with your employer
- ryan_j_naughton 4y agoEven then, you can't use company time, company resources, and company emails to support that disagreement: > In her email to staff, Ms. Shotwell wrote, “Blanketing thousands of people across the company with repeated unsolicited emails and asking them to sign letters and fill out unsponsored surveys during the work day is not acceptable.” These employees clearly messed up in that regard.
- meatsauce 4y agoYour general issue work-cancer employee is not a rational actor. The forethought ceases at "I'm offended"
- temp_6_17_2022 4y agoWhat (legal) orders did they defy?
- thal3s 4y agoWe're not slaves anymore. You as a human being are allowed to express your thoughts and opinions. Would we know how awful it was at Activision/Blizzard if those employees had not said something? Elon and C-Suite execs own and control everything, no need to bootlick.
- techie1980 4y agoIf you want to bite the hand that feeds you, then you need to be cognizant of the potential consequences. Some leaders, and following that some cultures are receptive of open criticism and disagreement. Others are absolutely not. It's up to each person to read the room.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- trs8080 4y ago> If you want to bite the hand that feeds you, then you need to be cognizant of the potential consequences. SpaceX employees are the hand that's feeding Musk. Unless you think he can get to Mars by himself.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- User23 4y agoI seriously doubt any of the people let go are remotely near the critical path for the Mars mission. In fact, certain kinds of persons are prone to stir up these kinds of issues to distract from their own poor performance in their actual job. Which evidently isn’t internal “activism.” The level of entitlement it takes to expect to be paid to undermine the organization that’s paying one ought to be shocking, but it evidently isn’t.
- babypuncher 4y agoInsubordination? What order did they violate when voicing criticism of the CEO? I do think Musk was within his legal rights to fire these people, but that does not mean it was the right thing to do or that he should be immune from criticism. Especially after he's made such a big fuss about free speech being so important.
- Justin_K 4y agoThe employees demanded that SpaceX condemn the CEOs statements on twitter. You don't think that's going to piss anybody off?
- ss108 4y agoAnd all the people getting cancelled said and did x bad thing, but Musk's sycophants and defenders, who tend to be free speech absolutists, act like people should be immune from the consequences of their actions.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y agoThere is no equivalency between getting fired because you insulted your boss and getting fired because 20000 hyperonline strangers didn't like your opinion about politics stated outside of work.
- temp_6_17_2022 4y ago> There is no equivalency between Sure there is, and trivially so- your employer decided to fire you in both cases, in neither did 20000 hyperonline strangers fire you.
- throwaway894345 4y agoI don't think this is a good comparison. First of all, many (most?) of the people who got canceled didn't do anything offensive or objectionable. Off the top of my head.: * The guy who got fired for cracking his knuckles in a way that looked vaguely like an "OK sign" which is offensive to some extreme left-wing people * The data scientist who got fired for citing research on the efficacy of nonviolent protest * The journalist who was pressured to leave his workplace for interviewing a black man whose views didn't match a certain narrative about what black people believe * The professor who was suspended for saying a Chinese word that sounds vaguely like an English slur Moreover, cancellation is "pressuring someone's employer to fire them". This is different than an employer taking offense to an employee's speech and firing them as a consequence. If Musk has said something like "employers shouldn't fire employees on the basis of their speech" (and he may have done, I really don't know), then he's probably being hypocritical, but not on the basis of cancel culture.
- micromacrofoot 4y agoSaying a bad thing about your employer isn't insubordination. That said, most places in the US are at-will employment, so you can fire your employees for no reason.
- buck4roo 4y ago> insubordination isn't a protected class Any bets on whether (CEO == assclown) is a protected class?
- vxNsr 4y agoThe original verge article I saw on this implied that the author (of the article) was in direct contact with at least a few of the letter’s authors.
- waffleiron 4y agoThe Verge article I found says: > It’s not known which SpaceX employees wrote the letter; the employees who posted the letter in the internal chat system have not responded to requests for comment. It says it was in contact with people who saw the letter, but nowhere implies it's the authors. > The letter generated more than a hundred comments in the Teams channel, with many employees agreeing to the spirit of the missive, according to screenshots of the chat shared by two sources who spoke with The Verge and asked to remain anonymous.
- aeternum 4y agoIt's better to have each employee write a separate e-mail to HR or his/her manager. Letters like this are generally designed to be seen by a public audience.
- cratermoon 4y agoThat will just subject each employee to individual and separate retaliation. Collective action is the backbone of worker power. HR isn't there to help employees, that division exists to protect the company's interests.
- mlindner 4y agoAn internal letter sent to thousands of employees.
- TheCoelacanth 4y agoWhich makes this protected concerted action between employees trying to improve their working conditions[1]. They would get smacked down for these firings if the NLRB wasn't so toothless. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/our-enforcement-activity/protected-concerted-activity https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/our-enforc...
- elihu 4y agoIt might be. It's hard to say, probably even by legal experts (and I'm definitely not one). I think a sticking point might be that the letter talked about bad behavior by Elon Musk in public, and a problem with the "no assholes" policy being vague and inconsistently applied -- but there weren't any concrete examples. Possibly some things Musk has tweeted might reasonably be interpreted as creating a hostile work environment or something like that. But maybe he just shared an opinion the authors of the letter don't agree with. Or they're annoyed at him for smoking weed in his Joe Rogan interview. It's hard to know for sure. (Maybe SpaceX employees already know what all the elephants in the room are and it wasn't necessary to enumerate them, but as an outside observer it's hard to know the full context.)