8 ms·

The gist: On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) and who already live in hot cli

The gist: On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) and who already live in hot climates (100->110 deg is more noticeable than 70->80). It’s nice data. They gave sleep tracking watches to 47,000 subjects for a few years, and this is what came out of it. Their climate change angle is suspect. It probably helps publish to be relevant to a real-world problem. But their final paragraph undermines the projections they try to make: people adapt to the long-term weather patterns, and they’ll likely partially adapt to climate change occurring over the course of 50 years. Of course it’s still relevant from a health equity standpoint to consider.

hammock 4y ago
I'm inclined to agree with you and it makes me wonder, why should global warming be a more favored subject than health equity?
- masklinn 4y ago
  > why should global warming be a more favored subject than health equity? Because global warming is a large driver of health inequity and a billion other issues as well?
- jawarner 4y ago
  Their angle was health equity in the context of global warming and how it impacts different populations to various degrees. That’s a common trend in global warming related issues. Their argument is fair enough. My issue with the paper was specifically with the projections they made, which extrapolated the effect on sleep caused by the weather all the way to effects on a 50-year interval caused by warming trends. But by the authors own admission people can physiologically and technologically adapt — at least partially — over long enough time periods. To be frank I think it’s a way to make a compelling headline. They have the statistical tools they have, it would be incredibly hard to account for long-term adaptation, and so they come up with some statistical estimate of the long-term trend. I see why they did it, but from a readers perspective it’s okay to be critical.
junon 4y ago
> Their climate change angle is suspect. It probably helps publish to be relevant to a real-world problem. Is, uh... is climate change no longer a real problem?
- jawarner 4y ago
  If you don’t mind I made a clarifying post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31470654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31470654
  - junon 4y ago
    Makes sense, I think I interpreted your original comment differently than intended as well.
    - jawarner 4y ago
      The fact that heat stress affects different populations with such different impacts is super important to climate policy and diplomacy and geopolitics. The authors in this case identified a concrete, statistically sound demonstration of disparate impact of heat stress. That’s something I wish I had emphasized in my top-level post.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  That is an extremely uncharitable take. OP is clearly saying climate change is an issue, but is not particularly relevant to the issue of human sleep.
masklinn 4y ago
> people adapt to the long-term weather patterns, and they’ll likely partially adapt to climate change occurring over the course of 50 years. Can you explain how populations of countries slowly creeping on routine 35WBT are supposed to adapt exactly?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I hope and expect they’ll consider dehumidification and air conditioning (which naturally “includes” dehumidification) as part of the adaptation strategy. (I’m not suggesting that we give up on global warming, but if a people are facing 35°C WB, AC/dehumidification is going to have to be part of the answer, because the next 5 years of climate is already cast and the only other short-term alternative is “well, move” which is far less practical or empathetic.)
tjoff 4y ago
>The gist: On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) Forcing a large part of the world where noone has an AC to get an AC (at least those that can afford it) is going to do wonders for the environment. I'm quite sensitive to heat and the quality of life improvements from an AC are immeasurable, though I live in an apartment and can't really get one (have a crappy portable one for emergencies). I suspect that the climate impact of the ACs are going to create a strong stigma against it where they are not strictly necessary.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Forcing a large part of the world where noone has an AC to get an AC (at least those that can afford it) is going to do wonders for the environment Sure, but then why does the US get a pass on being super environmentally unfriendly by running heating or AC at full blast everywhere while also having buildings with very poor insulation (by European standards at least; the single pane windows with no outdoor blinds I had in Miami Beach would be illegal in most of EU) and no outdoor sun shades to block the sun energy entering the building, choosing instead to vent it out via AC after it had already entered, or just straight up wasting energy (Las Vegas casinos run the AC basically outdoors), while other, usually poorer countries, should just suck it up and learn to live without AC? I get that the US is capital and resource rich and can afford to be wasteful with almost everything, but the climate impact is still global.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    > I get that the US is capital and resource rich and can afford to be wasteful with almost everything, https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states The US has been reducing CO2 emissions year on year for a while now.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      And yet, according to that chart, it's still 50% to 150% more polluting per capita than some EU countries like France, Austria and the Netherlands.
the_only_law 4y ago
> On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) As someone who’s fought multiple property management companies over dead AC’s I can confirm: it is difficult to sleep when you’re seeping into your own puddle of sweat. And there’s no real way to properly cool a space this humid I’ve ever heard of.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  And if it’s too humid to cool off with sweat, you just die
  - chess_buster 4y ago
    This might become a reality for people in india at the moment... :(
  - aljungberg 4y ago
    This is good to keep in mind although should you ever find yourself in such a situation know that you can still put your feet in a bucket of water. We usually get water from rivers our underground reservoirs so it tends to be cool enough even during heatwaves. It’s perhaps not the most convenient way to cool down but beats death.
Maursault 4y ago
> they’ll likely partially adapt to climate change occurring over the course of 50 years We will adapt by moving indoors to controlled environment, but it's not like we will evolve. At some point, the global mammalian birth rate is going to plummet because it will be too hot for sperm. Mammals won't physiologically adapt to that in a mere 50 years, but those able to live in controlled temperature indoor environments should be able to continue procreating. But when prolific procreators' (such as rabbits and squirrels) populations plummet, we should not ignore it. I really don't understand why we can't stop Global Warming... now. The contributors to Climate Change are not typical citizens, it's instead various industries. Why are we more concerned about those industries, construction, glass, shipping, energy, than we are about the human global population (and all the other living things)?
- jawarner 4y ago
  There are physiological adaptations as well. People in hotter climates are still going to get good sleep. It’s just when there are hotter temperatures than people are used to that sleep is impaired, and also that adaptive mechanism only works so well, and there is disparate impact for people in different climates. At a certain point, there are heat waves or very hot temperatures that simply aren’t conducive to human life. 100% agree about the urgency to make an economic system that is compatible with climate stability and thus with human life.

hammock 4y ago

I'm inclined to agree with you and it makes me wonder, why should global warming be a more favored subject than health equity?

masklinn 4y ago
> why should global warming be a more favored subject than health equity? Because global warming is a large driver of health inequity and a billion other issues as well?
jawarner 4y ago
Their angle was health equity in the context of global warming and how it impacts different populations to various degrees. That’s a common trend in global warming related issues. Their argument is fair enough. My issue with the paper was specifically with the projections they made, which extrapolated the effect on sleep caused by the weather all the way to effects on a 50-year interval caused by warming trends. But by the authors own admission people can physiologically and technologically adapt — at least partially — over long enough time periods. To be frank I think it’s a way to make a compelling headline. They have the statistical tools they have, it would be incredibly hard to account for long-term adaptation, and so they come up with some statistical estimate of the long-term trend. I see why they did it, but from a readers perspective it’s okay to be critical.

junon 4y ago

> Their climate change angle is suspect. It probably helps publish to be relevant to a real-world problem. Is, uh... is climate change no longer a real problem?

jawarner 4y ago
If you don’t mind I made a clarifying post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31470654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31470654
- junon 4y ago
  Makes sense, I think I interpreted your original comment differently than intended as well.
  - jawarner 4y ago
    The fact that heat stress affects different populations with such different impacts is super important to climate policy and diplomacy and geopolitics. The authors in this case identified a concrete, statistically sound demonstration of disparate impact of heat stress. That’s something I wish I had emphasized in my top-level post.
dahfizz 4y ago
That is an extremely uncharitable take. OP is clearly saying climate change is an issue, but is not particularly relevant to the issue of human sleep.

masklinn 4y ago

> people adapt to the long-term weather patterns, and they’ll likely partially adapt to climate change occurring over the course of 50 years. Can you explain how populations of countries slowly creeping on routine 35WBT are supposed to adapt exactly?

sokoloff 4y ago
I hope and expect they’ll consider dehumidification and air conditioning (which naturally “includes” dehumidification) as part of the adaptation strategy. (I’m not suggesting that we give up on global warming, but if a people are facing 35°C WB, AC/dehumidification is going to have to be part of the answer, because the next 5 years of climate is already cast and the only other short-term alternative is “well, move” which is far less practical or empathetic.)

tjoff 4y ago

>The gist: On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) Forcing a large part of the world where noone has an AC to get an AC (at least those that can afford it) is going to do wonders for the environment. I'm quite sensitive to heat and the quality of life improvements from an AC are immeasurable, though I live in an apartment and can't really get one (have a crappy portable one for emergencies). I suspect that the climate impact of the ACs are going to create a strong stigma against it where they are not strictly necessary.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Forcing a large part of the world where noone has an AC to get an AC (at least those that can afford it) is going to do wonders for the environment Sure, but then why does the US get a pass on being super environmentally unfriendly by running heating or AC at full blast everywhere while also having buildings with very poor insulation (by European standards at least; the single pane windows with no outdoor blinds I had in Miami Beach would be illegal in most of EU) and no outdoor sun shades to block the sun energy entering the building, choosing instead to vent it out via AC after it had already entered, or just straight up wasting energy (Las Vegas casinos run the AC basically outdoors), while other, usually poorer countries, should just suck it up and learn to live without AC? I get that the US is capital and resource rich and can afford to be wasteful with almost everything, but the climate impact is still global.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > I get that the US is capital and resource rich and can afford to be wasteful with almost everything, https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-states The US has been reducing CO2 emissions year on year for a while now.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    And yet, according to that chart, it's still 50% to 150% more polluting per capita than some EU countries like France, Austria and the Netherlands.

the_only_law 4y ago

> On hotter nights people get less sleep, this being especially the case for people who are poor (limited access to AC?) As someone who’s fought multiple property management companies over dead AC’s I can confirm: it is difficult to sleep when you’re seeping into your own puddle of sweat. And there’s no real way to properly cool a space this humid I’ve ever heard of.

oneoff786 4y ago
And if it’s too humid to cool off with sweat, you just die
- chess_buster 4y ago
  This might become a reality for people in india at the moment... :(
- aljungberg 4y ago
  This is good to keep in mind although should you ever find yourself in such a situation know that you can still put your feet in a bucket of water. We usually get water from rivers our underground reservoirs so it tends to be cool enough even during heatwaves. It’s perhaps not the most convenient way to cool down but beats death.

Maursault 4y ago

> they’ll likely partially adapt to climate change occurring over the course of 50 years We will adapt by moving indoors to controlled environment, but it's not like we will evolve. At some point, the global mammalian birth rate is going to plummet because it will be too hot for sperm. Mammals won't physiologically adapt to that in a mere 50 years, but those able to live in controlled temperature indoor environments should be able to continue procreating. But when prolific procreators' (such as rabbits and squirrels) populations plummet, we should not ignore it. I really don't understand why we can't stop Global Warming... now. The contributors to Climate Change are not typical citizens, it's instead various industries. Why are we more concerned about those industries, construction, glass, shipping, energy, than we are about the human global population (and all the other living things)?

jawarner 4y ago
There are physiological adaptations as well. People in hotter climates are still going to get good sleep. It’s just when there are hotter temperatures than people are used to that sleep is impaired, and also that adaptive mechanism only works so well, and there is disparate impact for people in different climates. At a certain point, there are heat waves or very hot temperatures that simply aren’t conducive to human life. 100% agree about the urgency to make an economic system that is compatible with climate stability and thus with human life.