5 ms·

Highlights: https://www.erlang.org/blog/my-otp-25-highlights/ https://www.erlang.org/blog/my-otp-25-highlights/

• tonyg 4y ago
  The new `maybe ... end` looks nice.
  • sph 4y ago
    At first sight it looks like Elixir's `with` expression.
    • rkangel 4y ago
      It is very much that. The Erlang team have not been too proud to steal good ideas from Elixir. Elixir has been a good source of fresh thinking for the BEAM ecosystem which has helped both the Erlang and Elixir side.
      • mononcqc 4y ago
        The Erlang 'maybe' expression expands on what 'with' allows in Elixir, mostly because the 'with' construct allows a list of conditional patterns and then a general 'do' block, whereas the Erlang 'maybe' allows mixed types of expressions that can either be conditional patterns or any normal expression weaved in together at the top level. It is therefore a bit more general than Elixir's 'with', and it would be interesting to see if the improvement could feed back into Elixir as well! The initial inspiration for the 'maybe' expression was the monadic approach (Ok(T) | Error(T)) return types seen in Haskell and Rust, and the first EEP was closer to these by trying to mandate the usage of 'ok | {ok, T}' matches with implicit unwrapping. For pragmatic reasons, we then changed the design to be closer to a general pattern matching, which forced the usage of 'else' clauses for safety reasons (which the EEP describes), and led us closer to Elixir's design, which I felt was inherently more risky in the first drafts (and therefore I now feel the Erlang design is riskier as well, albeit while being more idiomatic). So while I did get inspiration from Elixir, and particularly its usage of the 'else' clause for safety reasons, it would possibly be reductionist to say that "the good ideas were stolen from Elixir." The good ideas were stolen from Elixir, but also from Rust, Haskell, OCaml, and various custom libraries, which have done a lot of interesting work in value-based error handling that shouldn't be papered over. I still think these type-based approaches represent a significantly positive inspiration that we could ideally move closer to, if it were possible to magically transform existing code to match the stricter, cleaner, more composable patterns that they offer. In the end I'm hoping the 'maybe' expression still provides significantly nicer experiences in setting up business logic conditions in everyday code for Erlang user, and it is of course impossible to deny that I got some of the form and design caveats from the work done in the Elixir language already :) Also as a last caveat: I am not a member of the Erlang/OTP team. The design however was completed and refined with their participation (and they drove the final implementation whereas I did the proof of concept with Peer Stritzinger and wrote the initial EEP), but the stance expressed in my post here is mine and not the one of folks at Ericsson.
        • OkayPhysicist 4y ago
          The with statement in Elixir already allows for abitrary expressions between the with and the do. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.
          • mononcqc 4y ago
            You're right. After all these years (and even writing a book that had Elixir snippets in it) I had never seen a single example showing it was possible and did not know it could do it. Well there you go, I guess the pattern is equivalent but incidental.
        • _randyr 4y ago
          > the 'with' construct allows a list of conditional patterns and then a general 'do' block, whereas the Erlang 'maybe' allows mixed types of expressions that can either be conditional patterns or any normal expression weaved in together at the top level. This seems slightly incorrect to me. You can write expressions in Elixir's with macro too, by simply swapping the arrow for an equals sign. For example, this is perfectly valid Elixir code: with {:ok, x} <- {:ok, "Example"}, IO.puts(x), len = String.length(x) do IO.puts(len) end Did you mean something else?
          • mononcqc 4y ago
            See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31425298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31425298 for a response, since this is a duplicate. TL:DR; I had never seen it and had no idea it was possible because I don't recall seeing any documentation or post ever mentioning it! Ignorance on my part.
      • throwawayboise 4y ago
        That's good. I didn't come to the BEAM ecosystem from Ruby, so I prefer Erlang's syntax to Elixir's.
        • rkangel 4y ago
          I was the same initially, but now having onboarded multiple people on to Elixir projects, the more familiar type of syntax does ease the first week or so of getting your head round things.
        • macintux 4y ago
          You’re not alone. I value the conciseness of Erlang.
      • waynesonfire 4y ago
        I hope to think that it's just that the bar to make significant changes to Erlang is very high. Stability and backward compatibility over time is something worth valuing. For me, this is a property that makes Erlang a great ecosystem.
        • rkangel 4y ago
          I think this shows the inverse. DESPITE being a language with a long history, and a proven track record of dependability, they are continuing to add novel improvements. This release includes a new core bit of language syntax, and the expansion of the JIT which is a massive performance boost now on the two most important platforms. Turns out you can have stability and innovation!
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