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Would it still be a bicycle if the pedals aren't connected to the drive? This configuration would make it more like a scooter with a pedal generator.

by Lanrei 4y ago

csunbird 4y ago
Exactly, I am not sure if they would be allowed to be in the bicycle lanes in European countries (or at least in Germany)
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  Do they not allow e-bikes in those? That seems surprising, given how important e-bikes and pedal-assists have been (or have been represented as being) for broadening the accessibility of cycling. A quick googling led me to this statement about Germany and e-bikes: "Insurance and license plates are required. The maximum motor output is 500 watts for e-bikes. Also, e-bike drivers must use bike lanes unless there are none, in which case they are allowed to ride on the roads." From: https://adoebike.it/en/an-ultimate-guide-to-e-bike-laws-in-europe/ https://adoebike.it/en/an-ultimate-guide-to-e-bike-laws-in-e...
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Of course e bikes are allowed, but as you said you need an insurance + they must be capped to 25kmh and only provide power when the user is actively pedalling.
    - throwaway14356 4y ago
      in NL we have 3 kinds rly. 1) electrical assist that is limited to matching the riders output and limited in speed. They are cosidered bicycles. 2) e-bikes that are considered mopeds and 3) electric motorcycles.
  - croon 4y ago
    E-bikes are generally allowed as they 1) work like regular bikes. 2) only allowed if they're pedal assisted, ie not mopeds.
  - Fradow 4y ago
    That differs from country to country. In France, pedelecs (pedal-assist, assist is capped to 25km/h) are allowed on bike lanes, but speed bikes (not limited to 25km/h, they can reach the same speed as cars in cities, often 50km/h, and do not require pedaling) are not allowed on bike lanes. For all intent and purpose, a speed bike (or however you call it) is an electric moped.
- buovjaga 4y ago
  See these: https://leva-eu.com/eu-commission-finally-confirms-series-hybrid-cycles-are-epacs-excluded-from-l-category/ https://leva-eu.com/eu-commission-finally-confirms-series-hy... https://downtown-mag.com/en/new-eu-regulation-declares-ebikes-with-serial-hybrid-system-to-bicycles/ https://downtown-mag.com/en/new-eu-regulation-declares-ebike... Quote from the second article: The EU Commission’s statement ends an almost 5-year problem that has unsettled and set back manufacturers investing in the development of series hybrid bicycles. Undoubtedly, this technology is still a niche product but manufacturers such as automotive supplier Schaeffler are increasingly investing in this technology.
- usrusr 4y ago
  Electric scooters are already allowed (unfortunately for cyclists...), why would adding a charge-crank change that? I'd be more concerned about how a drive system like that would subtly fail to tickle the endorphine feedback loops the way a bike does. I don't think you'd notice on a conscious level, chances are you might even think you enjoy getting button-press acceleration from the battery buffer, but riding a bike has an immediacy that is close to the walking/running evolution has wired us for. I doubt that an e-scooter fueled by an ergometer generator would come anywhere close. I'm somewhat involved with a cycling vacation business and the way a day of being exposed to those feedback loops makes everybody involved happy that business feels almost like cheating. I really doubt that "ergometer driven e-scooter" could ever come anywhere close to that. But, well, Schaeffler isn't aiming at recreational cycling at all, just at the last mile delivery industry. I could not even guess wether it would make those jobs even more miserable or not.
- masklinn 4y ago
  Ignoring that they're not too different from an e-scooter, these could trivially only power the cycle when the user is actively pedalling, which would be the main issue with respect to pedelec classification. Though interestingly it could also put a hard limit on upper speed, since "motor assistance" has to cutoff at 25km/h. A series hybrid bike might be considered to only work off of motor assistance (ignoring downhill).
WelcomeShorty 4y ago
"it’s an electric motorcycle with a foot-operated charging crank."
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  And you can use it to charge your OLPC XO-1! ;)

Would it still be a bicycle if the pedals aren't connected to the drive? This configuration would make it more like a scooter with a pedal generator.

by Lanrei 4y ago

Would it still be a bicycle if the pedals aren't connected to the drive? This configuration would make it more like a scooter with a pedal generator.

csunbird 4y ago

Exactly, I am not sure if they would be allowed to be in the bicycle lanes in European countries (or at least in Germany)

mikepurvis 4y ago
Do they not allow e-bikes in those? That seems surprising, given how important e-bikes and pedal-assists have been (or have been represented as being) for broadening the accessibility of cycling. A quick googling led me to this statement about Germany and e-bikes: "Insurance and license plates are required. The maximum motor output is 500 watts for e-bikes. Also, e-bike drivers must use bike lanes unless there are none, in which case they are allowed to ride on the roads." From: https://adoebike.it/en/an-ultimate-guide-to-e-bike-laws-in-europe/ https://adoebike.it/en/an-ultimate-guide-to-e-bike-laws-in-e...
- lm28469 4y ago
  Of course e bikes are allowed, but as you said you need an insurance + they must be capped to 25kmh and only provide power when the user is actively pedalling.
  - throwaway14356 4y ago
    in NL we have 3 kinds rly. 1) electrical assist that is limited to matching the riders output and limited in speed. They are cosidered bicycles. 2) e-bikes that are considered mopeds and 3) electric motorcycles.
- croon 4y ago
  E-bikes are generally allowed as they 1) work like regular bikes. 2) only allowed if they're pedal assisted, ie not mopeds.
- Fradow 4y ago
  That differs from country to country. In France, pedelecs (pedal-assist, assist is capped to 25km/h) are allowed on bike lanes, but speed bikes (not limited to 25km/h, they can reach the same speed as cars in cities, often 50km/h, and do not require pedaling) are not allowed on bike lanes. For all intent and purpose, a speed bike (or however you call it) is an electric moped.
buovjaga 4y ago
See these: https://leva-eu.com/eu-commission-finally-confirms-series-hybrid-cycles-are-epacs-excluded-from-l-category/ https://leva-eu.com/eu-commission-finally-confirms-series-hy... https://downtown-mag.com/en/new-eu-regulation-declares-ebikes-with-serial-hybrid-system-to-bicycles/ https://downtown-mag.com/en/new-eu-regulation-declares-ebike... Quote from the second article: The EU Commission’s statement ends an almost 5-year problem that has unsettled and set back manufacturers investing in the development of series hybrid bicycles. Undoubtedly, this technology is still a niche product but manufacturers such as automotive supplier Schaeffler are increasingly investing in this technology.
usrusr 4y ago
Electric scooters are already allowed (unfortunately for cyclists...), why would adding a charge-crank change that? I'd be more concerned about how a drive system like that would subtly fail to tickle the endorphine feedback loops the way a bike does. I don't think you'd notice on a conscious level, chances are you might even think you enjoy getting button-press acceleration from the battery buffer, but riding a bike has an immediacy that is close to the walking/running evolution has wired us for. I doubt that an e-scooter fueled by an ergometer generator would come anywhere close. I'm somewhat involved with a cycling vacation business and the way a day of being exposed to those feedback loops makes everybody involved happy that business feels almost like cheating. I really doubt that "ergometer driven e-scooter" could ever come anywhere close to that. But, well, Schaeffler isn't aiming at recreational cycling at all, just at the last mile delivery industry. I could not even guess wether it would make those jobs even more miserable or not.
masklinn 4y ago
Ignoring that they're not too different from an e-scooter, these could trivially only power the cycle when the user is actively pedalling, which would be the main issue with respect to pedelec classification. Though interestingly it could also put a hard limit on upper speed, since "motor assistance" has to cutoff at 25km/h. A series hybrid bike might be considered to only work off of motor assistance (ignoring downhill).

WelcomeShorty 4y ago

"it’s an electric motorcycle with a foot-operated charging crank."

DonHopkins 4y ago
And you can use it to charge your OLPC XO-1! ;)