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I stopped giving to ACLU years ago when it became clear their mission to champion a grab-bag of lefty causes had superseded their free-speech defending goal. Th

I stopped giving to ACLU years ago when it became clear their mission to champion a grab-bag of lefty causes had superseded their free-speech defending goal. This pivot has lead them, at times, to actually defend the government against citizen requests for public records! I never thought I'd see the ACLU fighting on the government's behalf against FOIA/open records type requests but here it is: https://www.womensliberationfront.org/aclu-lawsuit-public-records https://www.womensliberationfront.org/aclu-lawsuit-public-re... In the above case, some female prisoners in Washington state wanted to know how many male prisoners had been transferred to women's prisons. The state didn't want to share that information (even in aggregate) and the ACLU defended the state's assertion that this information should be kept secret from the public, including from the imprisoned women whom this policy impacted directly. Why the government would want to keep this secret is a good question, but the main point here is: did people donating to the ACLU realize their money is being used to fight private citizen information requests & defend government secrecy? How the mighty have fallen.

joshuamorton 4y ago
These are citizens private healthcare information. You shouldn't be able to foia this anymore than my medicare records. Citizens don't lose their right to privacy because they're in prison. Goodness.
- cluedos 4y ago
  No, these are important questions regarding policy around sex-based rights. The FOIA requestor did not ask for any private information, merely for the number of the people.
- Clubber 4y ago
  If you read his link, it states the request is for counts, not individual names. 1. A complete and accurate count of inmates who identify as transgender (gender identity differs from sex identified at birth) in the custody of the Washington Department of Corrections [please break this information down by location] 2. Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021 3. Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a women’s facility 4. Number of inmates who have transferred from a women’s facility to a men’s facility from January 01, 2021 to March 18, 2021 5. Number of female persons who identify as male, non-binary or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a men’s facility
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Yes, and in the case of small N (which, like, is the case here), those are problematic to disclose!
    - giantg2 4y ago
      How so? You'd have to figure out the N in a population of hundreds of thousands (the state's prison population) without any other variables to go on.
      - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        It breaks down the N by location, which... what defines a location here? Is it a state? Is it a single prison? For a small N, narrow location is definitely a de-anonymization factor.
        giantg2 4y ago
        There's no mention of any narrow locations. The numbers are at the state level per the request in the article.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      How would knowing "1 Transwoman is currently housed in a female prison on the territory of Washington state" in any way risk causing harm to that transwoman, or help you identify her in any way?
      - prepend 4y ago
        It doesn’t. I think GP is confusing small cell counts in micro data (a real problem) with small numbers in aggregate data (sometimes a problem). In this case, just a count and prison is not a privacy issue as someone would have to already know the individual is trans to identify them. And that’s the only information contained in the data release.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
- prepend 4y ago
  Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Anyway, prisoner gender is not healthcare data, it’s administrative data that describes prisoner population demographics. I would agree with you if the request was for individual medical information on treatment or procedures or something.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    > Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Possibly, but you're almost assuredly looking at a sample of N=10 or fewer, so the answer would be "*" anyway.
    - prepend 4y ago
      Not if it’s just a count. Because, even with a low count it wouldn’t be used to identify someone. Let’s say there were 3 transgender people in the state, or even a facility. If they reveal that number it doesn’t identify an individual or divulge any confidential information. The low counts have to be suppressed when coupled with other data or linked to other data. If you included count by age group, then you would need to change from a low count to a suppressed marker. For example 3 transgenders in the 80+ age group might reveal their identity because there aren’t many 80+ inmates. But just having a small count with no other info is not really a cause to remove the value.
- deathanatos 4y ago
  It sounded like aggregate numbers were being requested, not names. (Though, the link is only one side of the story.) Assuming that is correct (that it is merely an aggregate count), does that not maintain medical privacy, while allowing public access to the information on how the state is running prisons?
- lesstenseflow 4y ago
  I don't think your sex is "private healthcare information." How would sharing the total number of males in various facilities violate an individuals privacy rights? (sidebar: if you think you retain your right to privacy in prison... all I can say is you've clearly never been to prison :) Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males?
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    > Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males? Any argument here about privacy is entirely independent of sex and gender. Prison is dehumanizing, address that. Don't be a transphobe. Edit: There's a bunch of mistaken comments here assuming that this will protect women prisoners in some capacity. That's totally wrong! Women in prison are sexually assaulted, raped, and even impregnated by men all the time and have been for years. Those men are guards[0]. And this happens at a vastly higher rate per capita and overall than any assault by trans inmates. Anyone here with a legitimate interest in protecting women in prison would be attempting to address that harm, because it is far more dire for numerous reasons. [0]: https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-prison-in-norcal-fostered-culture-of-abuse-inmate-say/ https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-priso...
    - lesstenseflow 4y ago
      Is a woman a transphobe for not wanting to share a jail cell with a person who has a penis? I think most people would consider safeguarding female prisoners from males common sense. I think you should take a moment to consider the (female) women in this situation. Imagine you're a woman 100% at the mercy of the state, and the state locks you in a cell with a male person. Put yourself in their shoes, and try to extend some empathy to them.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        I never made any comment about women in prison. I have empathy to anyone in prison. Like I said, its deeply inhumane. I think people in prison should be protected from other people in prison if they are dangerous, and I think prisons fail to do that today. I don't accept your presumption that having a penis makes someone inherently more dangerous. Again: if your goal is to protect women in prison, the best way to do that is to advocate for reform that makes prisons safer for everyone. Not by being transphobic, which you're doing instead.
- giantg2 4y ago
  They're asking for aggregate data, not personal data.
Clubber 4y ago
>Why the government would want to keep this secret is a good question It's because if the public found out, it would be either be considered illegal or unethical or ultimately make them look bad. That's the general rule of why anyone in government keeps an action secret. Now consider how much stuff the government wants to keep secret.
- bko 4y ago
  I guess the follow up question would be why the government transferred biological men to a women's prison, especially if it could be illegal, unethical and make them look bad?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Not a follow-up for the ACLU, who should be concentrating solely on records release (on the opposite side than they took.) The modern disease is that everyone seems to be running a keynesian beauty contest, trying to figure out what side the truth is better for, and pretending it's a lie if it's against their side. Principles aren't a means, they're an end. It's a world of propagandists (public relations professionals.)
agloeregrets 4y ago
- nostromo 4y ago
  In general "male" refers to sex, "men" to gender. While I agree the comment could be written more kindly, this comment was referring to biological sex, not gender identity.
  - tiahura 4y ago
    “In general "male" refers to sex, "men" to gender.” For the 99% of the world’s population that hasn’t been browbeat into submissivenesses, they are the same.
    - nostromo 4y ago
      Sure, I agree. But my point is that the commenter did not misgender anyone, even by the general standards of the trans community.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  No matter how nasty the reason was for the FOIA request - why should an organization who historically has defended free speech in most if not all circumstances going to such lengths to defeat it? What happened to defending the Westboro Baptist Church and skinheads re: freedom of speech?
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    Let's say there was a hypothetical corporation looking to identify employee participation in a protest. Would you defend that corporation making an FOIA request to identify who might've participated? Who's freedom of speech do you think deserves to be defended, the corporation or the individuals in question? Now apply that logic to this scenario, where the group in question is looking to identify individuals in order to make a scapegoat out of them for their own private decisions. Who's freedom deserves defending?
lr4444lr 4y ago
IIRC, FOIA does not grant you a right to personal information collected on citizens. The agencies have the right to redact that in whole or in part from the records sought. I don't deny your main concern about left wing issues potentially derailing the ACLU's chief mission, but that isn't the example I'd cite.
- giantg2 4y ago
  You are correct. However, the request did not request personal information and only aggregate counts.
giantg2 4y ago
"Why the government would want to keep this secret is a good question" That's an easy one - they always hide anything that could be controversial. This is definitely a hot topic in recent years. "did people donating to the ACLU realize their money is being used to fight private citizen information requests & defend government secrecy?" Due to the scope of the ACLU's actions and the variability of its members personal beliefs, it's almost guaranteed that they engage in things that some member disagree with. Edit: why disagree?
deleted 4y ago
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thrwy_ywrht 4y ago
> some female prisoners in Washington state wanted to know how many male prisoners had been transferred to women's prisons This is such an incredibly bad-faith and transphobic representation of the case that I can only conclude you are intentionally trolling. Even if you believe that trans women should not be housed in prisons with cis women, it is beyond bad faith choose the words you chose to use.
- lesstenseflow 4y ago
  I'm not following you at all. From the text of the request, the petitioners want to know: "Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021" This is almost identical to what I wrote. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me and others what part of my argument you disagree with rather than simply saying "incredibly bad-faith" "transphobic" "you are trolling" "beyond bad faith" without any explanation of what you think I did wrong or would prefer I do differently. For what it's worth, I think you are acting in bad faith by calling me names and speculating unkindly about my motives without actually explaining what assertion or argument you object to and why. What you're doing is just bullying.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    It's wrong to say "male." You're supposed to come up with some euphemism, like "bedicked." Literally nothing to do with the content of the argument; you're supposed to concede the ground before you step onto it.
    - cluedos 4y ago
      Exactly this. Even using the phrase 'trans woman' is a concession, implying that these men are a subcategory of women, rather than of men. And that it's possible to 'trans' into this category. (This is why in radical feminist circles, they are typically referred to as 'trans-identifying males' instead.)
    - prepend 4y ago
      While I really prefer the term “bedicked,” what is the term for people with penises regardless of gender? Is there a term that won’t result in someone being called a transphobe? I’ve heard the term “sex assigned at birth” but that’s not accurate in this situation because I’m interested in people with penises and if someone was born male and had their penis removed surgically I wouldn’t want them included in my population of interest.
8345570934 4y ago
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- dmix 4y ago
  How is releasing raw statistics about inmates based on demographics creating "a target list"? I don't see where they are asking for a list of individual identities. The public records act doesn't include personal information: > personal student or patient information, employee files, and some investigative records are exempt. You could silence tons of scientific studies with this sort of broad rejection of data collection simply because you deem a subset of the group 'vulnerable' (including just as many studies that benefit these groups). It could be applied in many other ways beyond state prisons.
  - 8345570934 4y ago
    Some of the requests are directly for the names and ages of individuals, but the government doesn't have the statistics requested and want to "provide records from which requestors may derive answers to their own questions" for the statistics requests as well. The ACLU is objecting to this to the extent that it would "include highly sensitive information" that identifies individuals. The ACLU is not asking the court to block the government from releasing raw statistics. They want to prevent them from releasing a literal list of transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. There are also requests for infractions, complaints, reports, etc. If you think this is agienst the law, then you agree with the ACLU.
- grasbo 4y ago
  WoLF are representing Andrea Kelly. The ACLU's own filing, that you linked to, confirms that she requested only statistical data, not personally-identifying information: > 4.8 On March 19, 2021, Requestor Andrea Kelly made a public records request to Defendant Washington State Department of Corrections that sought the following records: > - "The number of transgender individuals currently incarcerated broken out by facility location." > - "Number of incarcerated individuals who have been transferred from a men's facility to a women's facility since January 1, 2021." > - "The number of male incarcerated individuals who identify as female, non- binary or any other gender identity who are currently housed at a Women's prison facility." > - "The number of incarcerated individuals who have transferred from a Women's facility to a Men's facility since January 1, 2021." > - "The number of female incarcerated individuals who identify as male, non- binary or any other gender identity who are currently housed in a Men's prison facility." I do wonder if you read past that first paragraph you quoted, because the above section supports the facts of WoLF's article that you erroneously called out as "outright lying".

joshuamorton 4y ago

These are citizens private healthcare information. You shouldn't be able to foia this anymore than my medicare records. Citizens don't lose their right to privacy because they're in prison. Goodness.

cluedos 4y ago
No, these are important questions regarding policy around sex-based rights. The FOIA requestor did not ask for any private information, merely for the number of the people.
Clubber 4y ago
If you read his link, it states the request is for counts, not individual names. 1. A complete and accurate count of inmates who identify as transgender (gender identity differs from sex identified at birth) in the custody of the Washington Department of Corrections [please break this information down by location] 2. Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021 3. Total number of male persons who identify as female, non-binary, or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a women’s facility 4. Number of inmates who have transferred from a women’s facility to a men’s facility from January 01, 2021 to March 18, 2021 5. Number of female persons who identify as male, non-binary or any other gender identity that are currently housed in a men’s facility
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Yes, and in the case of small N (which, like, is the case here), those are problematic to disclose!
  - giantg2 4y ago
    How so? You'd have to figure out the N in a population of hundreds of thousands (the state's prison population) without any other variables to go on.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      It breaks down the N by location, which... what defines a location here? Is it a state? Is it a single prison? For a small N, narrow location is definitely a de-anonymization factor.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        There's no mention of any narrow locations. The numbers are at the state level per the request in the article.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    How would knowing "1 Transwoman is currently housed in a female prison on the territory of Washington state" in any way risk causing harm to that transwoman, or help you identify her in any way?
    - prepend 4y ago
      It doesn’t. I think GP is confusing small cell counts in micro data (a real problem) with small numbers in aggregate data (sometimes a problem). In this case, just a count and prison is not a privacy issue as someone would have to already know the individual is trans to identify them. And that’s the only information contained in the data release.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
prepend 4y ago
Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Anyway, prisoner gender is not healthcare data, it’s administrative data that describes prisoner population demographics. I would agree with you if the request was for individual medical information on treatment or procedures or something.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  > Aggregate counts are not private healthcare information when released in a way that limits reidentification. The Privacy Act (and HIPAA) allows for deidentified data to be shared broadly. Possibly, but you're almost assuredly looking at a sample of N=10 or fewer, so the answer would be "*" anyway.
  - prepend 4y ago
    Not if it’s just a count. Because, even with a low count it wouldn’t be used to identify someone. Let’s say there were 3 transgender people in the state, or even a facility. If they reveal that number it doesn’t identify an individual or divulge any confidential information. The low counts have to be suppressed when coupled with other data or linked to other data. If you included count by age group, then you would need to change from a low count to a suppressed marker. For example 3 transgenders in the 80+ age group might reveal their identity because there aren’t many 80+ inmates. But just having a small count with no other info is not really a cause to remove the value.
deathanatos 4y ago
It sounded like aggregate numbers were being requested, not names. (Though, the link is only one side of the story.) Assuming that is correct (that it is merely an aggregate count), does that not maintain medical privacy, while allowing public access to the information on how the state is running prisons?
lesstenseflow 4y ago
I don't think your sex is "private healthcare information." How would sharing the total number of males in various facilities violate an individuals privacy rights? (sidebar: if you think you retain your right to privacy in prison... all I can say is you've clearly never been to prison :) Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males?
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  > Regarding the right to privacy, what's your take on the privacy rights of the (female) women who are being physically forced to house & sleep in a cell with males? Any argument here about privacy is entirely independent of sex and gender. Prison is dehumanizing, address that. Don't be a transphobe. Edit: There's a bunch of mistaken comments here assuming that this will protect women prisoners in some capacity. That's totally wrong! Women in prison are sexually assaulted, raped, and even impregnated by men all the time and have been for years. Those men are guards[0]. And this happens at a vastly higher rate per capita and overall than any assault by trans inmates. Anyone here with a legitimate interest in protecting women in prison would be attempting to address that harm, because it is far more dire for numerous reasons. [0]: https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-prison-in-norcal-fostered-culture-of-abuse-inmate-say/ https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/the-rape-club-womens-priso...
  - lesstenseflow 4y ago
    Is a woman a transphobe for not wanting to share a jail cell with a person who has a penis? I think most people would consider safeguarding female prisoners from males common sense. I think you should take a moment to consider the (female) women in this situation. Imagine you're a woman 100% at the mercy of the state, and the state locks you in a cell with a male person. Put yourself in their shoes, and try to extend some empathy to them.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      I never made any comment about women in prison. I have empathy to anyone in prison. Like I said, its deeply inhumane. I think people in prison should be protected from other people in prison if they are dangerous, and I think prisons fail to do that today. I don't accept your presumption that having a penis makes someone inherently more dangerous. Again: if your goal is to protect women in prison, the best way to do that is to advocate for reform that makes prisons safer for everyone. Not by being transphobic, which you're doing instead.
giantg2 4y ago
They're asking for aggregate data, not personal data.

Clubber 4y ago

>Why the government would want to keep this secret is a good question It's because if the public found out, it would be either be considered illegal or unethical or ultimately make them look bad. That's the general rule of why anyone in government keeps an action secret. Now consider how much stuff the government wants to keep secret.

bko 4y ago
I guess the follow up question would be why the government transferred biological men to a women's prison, especially if it could be illegal, unethical and make them look bad?
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Not a follow-up for the ACLU, who should be concentrating solely on records release (on the opposite side than they took.) The modern disease is that everyone seems to be running a keynesian beauty contest, trying to figure out what side the truth is better for, and pretending it's a lie if it's against their side. Principles aren't a means, they're an end. It's a world of propagandists (public relations professionals.)

agloeregrets 4y ago

nostromo 4y ago
In general "male" refers to sex, "men" to gender. While I agree the comment could be written more kindly, this comment was referring to biological sex, not gender identity.
- tiahura 4y ago
  “In general "male" refers to sex, "men" to gender.” For the 99% of the world’s population that hasn’t been browbeat into submissivenesses, they are the same.
  - nostromo 4y ago
    Sure, I agree. But my point is that the commenter did not misgender anyone, even by the general standards of the trans community.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
No matter how nasty the reason was for the FOIA request - why should an organization who historically has defended free speech in most if not all circumstances going to such lengths to defeat it? What happened to defending the Westboro Baptist Church and skinheads re: freedom of speech?
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Let's say there was a hypothetical corporation looking to identify employee participation in a protest. Would you defend that corporation making an FOIA request to identify who might've participated? Who's freedom of speech do you think deserves to be defended, the corporation or the individuals in question? Now apply that logic to this scenario, where the group in question is looking to identify individuals in order to make a scapegoat out of them for their own private decisions. Who's freedom deserves defending?

lr4444lr 4y ago

IIRC, FOIA does not grant you a right to personal information collected on citizens. The agencies have the right to redact that in whole or in part from the records sought. I don't deny your main concern about left wing issues potentially derailing the ACLU's chief mission, but that isn't the example I'd cite.

giantg2 4y ago
You are correct. However, the request did not request personal information and only aggregate counts.

giantg2 4y ago

"Why the government would want to keep this secret is a good question" That's an easy one - they always hide anything that could be controversial. This is definitely a hot topic in recent years. "did people donating to the ACLU realize their money is being used to fight private citizen information requests & defend government secrecy?" Due to the scope of the ACLU's actions and the variability of its members personal beliefs, it's almost guaranteed that they engage in things that some member disagree with. Edit: why disagree?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

thrwy_ywrht 4y ago

> some female prisoners in Washington state wanted to know how many male prisoners had been transferred to women's prisons This is such an incredibly bad-faith and transphobic representation of the case that I can only conclude you are intentionally trolling. Even if you believe that trans women should not be housed in prisons with cis women, it is beyond bad faith choose the words you chose to use.

lesstenseflow 4y ago
I'm not following you at all. From the text of the request, the petitioners want to know: "Number of inmates that have been transferred from a men’s facility to a women’s facility since January 01, 2021" This is almost identical to what I wrote. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me and others what part of my argument you disagree with rather than simply saying "incredibly bad-faith" "transphobic" "you are trolling" "beyond bad faith" without any explanation of what you think I did wrong or would prefer I do differently. For what it's worth, I think you are acting in bad faith by calling me names and speculating unkindly about my motives without actually explaining what assertion or argument you object to and why. What you're doing is just bullying.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  It's wrong to say "male." You're supposed to come up with some euphemism, like "bedicked." Literally nothing to do with the content of the argument; you're supposed to concede the ground before you step onto it.
  - cluedos 4y ago
    Exactly this. Even using the phrase 'trans woman' is a concession, implying that these men are a subcategory of women, rather than of men. And that it's possible to 'trans' into this category. (This is why in radical feminist circles, they are typically referred to as 'trans-identifying males' instead.)
  - prepend 4y ago
    While I really prefer the term “bedicked,” what is the term for people with penises regardless of gender? Is there a term that won’t result in someone being called a transphobe? I’ve heard the term “sex assigned at birth” but that’s not accurate in this situation because I’m interested in people with penises and if someone was born male and had their penis removed surgically I wouldn’t want them included in my population of interest.

8345570934 4y ago

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dmix 4y ago
How is releasing raw statistics about inmates based on demographics creating "a target list"? I don't see where they are asking for a list of individual identities. The public records act doesn't include personal information: > personal student or patient information, employee files, and some investigative records are exempt. You could silence tons of scientific studies with this sort of broad rejection of data collection simply because you deem a subset of the group 'vulnerable' (including just as many studies that benefit these groups). It could be applied in many other ways beyond state prisons.
- 8345570934 4y ago
  Some of the requests are directly for the names and ages of individuals, but the government doesn't have the statistics requested and want to "provide records from which requestors may derive answers to their own questions" for the statistics requests as well. The ACLU is objecting to this to the extent that it would "include highly sensitive information" that identifies individuals. The ACLU is not asking the court to block the government from releasing raw statistics. They want to prevent them from releasing a literal list of transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. There are also requests for infractions, complaints, reports, etc. If you think this is agienst the law, then you agree with the ACLU.
grasbo 4y ago
WoLF are representing Andrea Kelly. The ACLU's own filing, that you linked to, confirms that she requested only statistical data, not personally-identifying information: > 4.8 On March 19, 2021, Requestor Andrea Kelly made a public records request to Defendant Washington State Department of Corrections that sought the following records: > - "The number of transgender individuals currently incarcerated broken out by facility location." > - "Number of incarcerated individuals who have been transferred from a men's facility to a women's facility since January 1, 2021." > - "The number of male incarcerated individuals who identify as female, non- binary or any other gender identity who are currently housed at a Women's prison facility." > - "The number of incarcerated individuals who have transferred from a Women's facility to a Men's facility since January 1, 2021." > - "The number of female incarcerated individuals who identify as male, non- binary or any other gender identity who are currently housed in a Men's prison facility." I do wonder if you read past that first paragraph you quoted, because the above section supports the facts of WoLF's article that you erroneously called out as "outright lying".