6 ms·

70% of the water in Arizona goes to farming. Our state ships hay to the Middle East. Subsidized water is a ridiculous subversion of market economics. Blaming t

by jcoq 4y ago

70% of the water in Arizona goes to farming. Our state ships hay to the Middle East. Subsidized water is a ridiculous subversion of market economics. Blaming this on suburban households is like pretending that climate change would be solved if only consumers would be mindful of their carbon footprints.

syspec 4y ago
I think they alluded to that in their reply
adolph 4y ago
Here is a source(ish) for the above. On the supply side: 41% Groundwater 36% Colorado River (limited to 2.8 million acre feet annually) 18% In-state Rivers (unlimited) 5% Reclaimed Water https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts
scarmig 4y ago
That reminds of me of when my state made a big show of banning restaurants from automatically bringing water to your table, when 80% of our water use goes to agriculture.
- jiocrag 4y ago
  Dude... farms make food lol. You don't need an extra cup of water without asking, but farms need water to grow food. This is the type of delusional entitlement that is ruining the planet.
  - majormajor 4y ago
    "Delusional entitlement" is thinking you should be able to forever grow crops in a region where water is scarce.
    - jiocrag 4y ago
      And WHY do you think crops are grown there?? Year round sunshine to feed the consumer’s (I.e. YOUR) appetite. You can’t grow avocados in Minnesota. This is the definition of delusional entitlement — not understanding how food supply works in the US then bitching about the consequences for a system that feeds you.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    The only entitlement I see is from those who think they're entitled to grow crops in a desert during a drought. Nobody is going to die if almonds aren't grown in the desert.
    - jiocrag 4y ago
      That’s because it’s the only place you can grow these crops year round, which is what the American consumer demands. You have very poor systems understanding — just a myopic view that lets you cast aspersions while enjoying the benefits of the system.
yawz 4y ago
I believe that number is even higher in California: ~80% How much almond California produces? Given the fact that "one ounce of almonds requires ~23 gallons of water", do the math!
ebiester 4y ago
It's an ugly problem. The farmers actually have first right to the water over the cities, even if they use it inefficiently, due to the oldest laws in Arizona: water right laws. That's right, the first laws in Arizona were about water and grabbing someone's water rights is some messy law. Yes, we need to be talking about some drastic solutions in the area, yes, but it's not as simple as it seems from the outside.
bogota 4y ago
It’s becoming unbearable that every issue facing society is the consumers fault. I take a ten minute shower and I’m destroying the world but the farmer growing crops that wouldn’t exist in the region without imported water is fine. I realize we can fix more than one thing but the arguments i am always seeing is stating the consumer is the biggest issue and it’s infuriating.
- colpabar 4y ago
  If they can convince us that everything is our fault, then we'll turn to fighting amongst ourselves, and nothing will change. Which is exactly where we're at, and not just with climate issues. Stop trusting the people on TV!
  - jiocrag 4y ago
    Whose fault is it?
    - ianai 4y ago
      I’m not really interested in fault when this is a solvable problem with current tech. Consider that New Mexico gets enough solar power per year to power all of the globe. And it gets a ton of wind (70 mph gusts the last several days for much of the day!). And that’s just one state in the southwest and the rest get similar (or more) amounts of sunny days, wind, etc. Though water rights are probably the lower hanging fruit to tackle…except it’s chock full of political issues dating back to the Spanish territorial days. Politicians way worse than today in many ways found ways to build out the big infrastructure projects that made the modern southwest a possibility - ie the Hoover Dam, the national highways, and power grid.
- grapeskin 4y ago
  To an extent, it is. Americans can’t do much about hay shipped to the Middle East, but buying cheap produce out of season pushes markets to grow crops in unusual places. Less of a problem when buying in-season foods from down the road, but that’d mean customers also have to stop shopping at places like Walmart.
seandoe 4y ago
This. I live in Utah and it's the same story.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
It is not a matter of subsidized water, It is a challenge around private water ownership and public demand. Most western states have some form of private water ownership, where land owners own the water under it, like gold, oil, ect. Most of the population is urban, and don't have sufficient water ownership to meet their demands, particularly in times of drought. This creates a natural conflict between owners who want to use it for one thing, and thirsty cities who don't own the water. The the extent it is a the fault of suburban households, it is their fault for not buying the water or lands to meet their needs. https://mywaterearth.com/who-are-the-global-water-grabbers/ https://mywaterearth.com/who-are-the-global-water-grabbers/
- scarmig 4y ago
  If a perfect market existed in water in western states, the cost of a gallon of water would be the same whether directed to urban or agricultural uses. It clearly isn't, which is a pretty clear sign that there are high frictions facing people who want to purchase the water they need. A fix to this requires a change in policy.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    It is not the price of a gallon that is being paid, but the right to use a gallon for all time. There are indeed high frictions, mostly in the form of upfront capital costs. If you want to buy a farmers water, they want to be compensated for sunk capital and future earnings. They bought land, planted it, drilled wells, and have 30+ years of future earnings, after which, they could sell their rights. In short, the relevant market is for the water rights, not the water itself.

by jcoq 4y ago

syspec 4y ago

I think they alluded to that in their reply

adolph 4y ago

Here is a source(ish) for the above. On the supply side: 41% Groundwater 36% Colorado River (limited to 2.8 million acre feet annually) 18% In-state Rivers (unlimited) 5% Reclaimed Water https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts

scarmig 4y ago

That reminds of me of when my state made a big show of banning restaurants from automatically bringing water to your table, when 80% of our water use goes to agriculture.

jiocrag 4y ago
Dude... farms make food lol. You don't need an extra cup of water without asking, but farms need water to grow food. This is the type of delusional entitlement that is ruining the planet.
- majormajor 4y ago
  "Delusional entitlement" is thinking you should be able to forever grow crops in a region where water is scarce.
  - jiocrag 4y ago
    And WHY do you think crops are grown there?? Year round sunshine to feed the consumer’s (I.e. YOUR) appetite. You can’t grow avocados in Minnesota. This is the definition of delusional entitlement — not understanding how food supply works in the US then bitching about the consequences for a system that feeds you.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  The only entitlement I see is from those who think they're entitled to grow crops in a desert during a drought. Nobody is going to die if almonds aren't grown in the desert.
  - jiocrag 4y ago
    That’s because it’s the only place you can grow these crops year round, which is what the American consumer demands. You have very poor systems understanding — just a myopic view that lets you cast aspersions while enjoying the benefits of the system.

yawz 4y ago

I believe that number is even higher in California: ~80% How much almond California produces? Given the fact that "one ounce of almonds requires ~23 gallons of water", do the math!

ebiester 4y ago

It's an ugly problem. The farmers actually have first right to the water over the cities, even if they use it inefficiently, due to the oldest laws in Arizona: water right laws. That's right, the first laws in Arizona were about water and grabbing someone's water rights is some messy law. Yes, we need to be talking about some drastic solutions in the area, yes, but it's not as simple as it seems from the outside.

bogota 4y ago

It’s becoming unbearable that every issue facing society is the consumers fault. I take a ten minute shower and I’m destroying the world but the farmer growing crops that wouldn’t exist in the region without imported water is fine. I realize we can fix more than one thing but the arguments i am always seeing is stating the consumer is the biggest issue and it’s infuriating.

colpabar 4y ago
If they can convince us that everything is our fault, then we'll turn to fighting amongst ourselves, and nothing will change. Which is exactly where we're at, and not just with climate issues. Stop trusting the people on TV!
- jiocrag 4y ago
  Whose fault is it?
  - ianai 4y ago
    I’m not really interested in fault when this is a solvable problem with current tech. Consider that New Mexico gets enough solar power per year to power all of the globe. And it gets a ton of wind (70 mph gusts the last several days for much of the day!). And that’s just one state in the southwest and the rest get similar (or more) amounts of sunny days, wind, etc. Though water rights are probably the lower hanging fruit to tackle…except it’s chock full of political issues dating back to the Spanish territorial days. Politicians way worse than today in many ways found ways to build out the big infrastructure projects that made the modern southwest a possibility - ie the Hoover Dam, the national highways, and power grid.
grapeskin 4y ago
To an extent, it is. Americans can’t do much about hay shipped to the Middle East, but buying cheap produce out of season pushes markets to grow crops in unusual places. Less of a problem when buying in-season foods from down the road, but that’d mean customers also have to stop shopping at places like Walmart.

seandoe 4y ago

This. I live in Utah and it's the same story.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

It is not a matter of subsidized water, It is a challenge around private water ownership and public demand. Most western states have some form of private water ownership, where land owners own the water under it, like gold, oil, ect. Most of the population is urban, and don't have sufficient water ownership to meet their demands, particularly in times of drought. This creates a natural conflict between owners who want to use it for one thing, and thirsty cities who don't own the water. The the extent it is a the fault of suburban households, it is their fault for not buying the water or lands to meet their needs. https://mywaterearth.com/who-are-the-global-water-grabbers/ https://mywaterearth.com/who-are-the-global-water-grabbers/

scarmig 4y ago
If a perfect market existed in water in western states, the cost of a gallon of water would be the same whether directed to urban or agricultural uses. It clearly isn't, which is a pretty clear sign that there are high frictions facing people who want to purchase the water they need. A fix to this requires a change in policy.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  It is not the price of a gallon that is being paid, but the right to use a gallon for all time. There are indeed high frictions, mostly in the form of upfront capital costs. If you want to buy a farmers water, they want to be compensated for sunk capital and future earnings. They bought land, planted it, drilled wells, and have 30+ years of future earnings, after which, they could sell their rights. In short, the relevant market is for the water rights, not the water itself.