7 ms·

Hi, I’m Russian. Ukraine and Russia is a story of a divorce

43 points by Procedural 5y ago

livinglist 5y ago
not really in favor of this characterizing countries thing. it’s like how China calls Hongkong it’s child and it finally was returned to its mother in 1997. Nowadays same terminology is applied to Taiwan, I’m just disgusted by this figure of speech, saying China is a mother and hongkong and Taiwan are her children just signals that you don’t want to treat them with respect in the first place. Same thing with this story, saying Russia is husband signals the bias in author’s mind: Ukraine is the weaker and smaller one thus the wife. sorry for my broken English, hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say…
- trinsic2 5y ago
  Yea Politicians use that language to try and convince political states and countries are things, but they are just ideas that people can either believe in or not. I like the idea of using the OP as a metaphor to help everyone understand the dynamics. It doesn't mean that in practice it really exists.
- Procedural 5y ago
  Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union. They spoke Russian. They married Russians. It happened. But it's a history now. No one can force-continue the marriage.
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    > It happened. Well, before that there was another war (the Red Army vs. the Ukrainian nationalists around 1920); and Stalin killing millions of Ukrainians in the man-made famine in the early 1930; followed by the mass repressions in the late 1930s, with hundreds of thousands executed. It's never been a happy marriage, not really.
    - Procedural 5y ago
      I agree. This is another reason to stop trying to make it happen, when it wasn't a happy marriage in the first place.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    You mean Ukraine was a part of Rus and Russian empires going back 1000 years. It goes way beyond the Soviet Union...
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      Yes there are ethnic ties between them. That doesn't mean they are identical, or that one should rule the other. Should Scotland rule Ireland (or vice versa) because they are both Gaelic peoples that were part of the British Empire?
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        I said nothing about 'should'. Simply history. Ukraine was never a 'country' until briefly in the 20's then the 90's. Ukrainians have been Rus, or Russians, or Ruthenians, etc... for most of their history. They were once a single people. That's just a fact. The differences in identity are the fact that western Ukraine has at times belonged to Austria-Hungary or Poland. Or the fact the Cossacks carved out small states amidst foreign rule. And likewise Novgorod and Moscow had small states during Muslim domination which also contributed to a unique Russian identity. It's not as simple as 'Ukraine was part of USSR for a generation. My ancestors were Ukrainian, spoke Ukrainian, identified as Ukrainian but were from Austria-Hungary and officially were called 'Ruthenians'. The same thing that separates Russia and Ukraine is what separates the Czech Republic and Slovakia. One people (ish), just different historical circumstances at times creating different identities and eventually states. Ukraine should be its own country today. But not because of made up history, simply because today they want to.
        torstenvl 5y ago
        Ruthenia was called Ruthenia because it was in the West, and part of the Polish-Lithuanian Empire, so went by the Latin name for Rus. Russia is derived from the Greek. Even centuries ago they were distinct. And before then, before there were nation-states as we think of them now, the principality of Kyiv was distinct from the principality of Mosovy. Kyiv was not subordinated to Moscow until Peter, Elizabeth, and Catherine, in the 1600s and 1700s -- more than a millennium after Kyiv's founding. The history is not made up. https://www.timemaps.com/history/russia-979ad/ https://www.timemaps.com/history/russia-979ad/
- jchiu1106 5y ago
  Considering how mainland China (PRC) and Taiwan (ROC) are separated, they're more like siblings, with ROC being the elder one.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    ROC is the original government of the whole of China (mainland plus Taiwan). PRC is the johnny-come-lately rebels. So I'd say that ROC is not only the elder, the PRC is the illegitimate half-brother.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Many Taiwanese see the ROC as invaders, they would rather have neither the PRC nor the ROC governing over them, and this is what the PRC is most against (at least if Taiwan is controlled by the ROC, it can still be seen as a civil dispute over who controls China, vs a question of an independent Taiwan). Japan actually treated Taiwan more as a province rather than a colony, which led to a lot of distrust between the islanders and mainlanders when the ROC regained control of the island.
trinsic2 5y ago
I was thinking about writing something exactly from this perspective today. Based on what Putin said about Ukraine, how it use to be part of Russia. The fact that Ukraine has declared their independence from Russia is exactly like an abusive husband that won't let go of the relationship and he is willing to put everyone in jeopardy to get his selfish desire of grandiosity met. Everyone one around him sees that its over and nothing is going change that. No amount of violence is going to bring everything back to the glory days. Its over, move on.
- 0x737368 5y ago
MrDisposable 5y ago
I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing my Russian nationality. I may have Russian origins, and I may speak Russian, and I may live in Russia – but my nationality would be blank. Null. Nothing. Empty string. I decided against that. By renouncing my nationality I would also renounce Lomonosov, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Tchaikovsky, Vavilov, Surikov, Vrubel, Tarkovsky, Korolyev, and Gagarin. I refuse to let a single tyrant tarnish the Russian contribution to human civilization.
- watersb 5y ago
  Nothing wrong with being proud of your nation's accomplishments, and being appalled at its violence. We have been shown the strength of our culture, and the fragility of our institutions, in this era of super-power authoritarianism. I don't know what the world will be like in ten years. Post-Trump, post-Putin, and hopefully still able to support human life.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  > a nation of defenders Nonsense. Russian history is full of invasions. That is how empires are created, and that is their mode of existence.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    To be fair, more often than not, Russia was on the receiving end of invasions. Even when they invaded others, it was often in response to being invaded first. Look at how the Russian empire formed: it was Moscow re-taking all the Kyivan Rus lands that were conquered by Muslim invaders. Or all the European countries that attacked/invaded Russian lands: Great Britain, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Poland-Lithuania and I'm probably forgetting some. So yes, it's fairly apt to say that, more often than not, Russia was defending its own lands. The fact that Russia is wrong today doesn't mean that it hasn't been wronged many, many times before. A parallel is that many abusers were once abused themselves (and yes the cycle needs to end). Also, Ukraine's unfortunate history: they were the part of Rus/Russian lands that almost always were passed back and forth. The name "Ukraine" itself suggests that...
newprint 5y ago
As native speaker of Russian language, large part of my Russian identity was the fact, that I was raised in household of WW2 veteran(I was born and lived in one of the ex-Soviet republics, not in Russia). I always viewed Russian army as liberators. In the light of current events, this part of me took a huge blow and I'm not sure, I will ever reconcile. Russian army that is in Ukraine are bunch of untrained, uncoordinated thugs that have zero regards to human life and lead by war criminals. I have nothing but contempt for Russian Army. What up with the new "Z" Swastika ?
- pomdapi 5y ago
  A response to the 2-in-1 superposed/slanted N-Z- of Azov I guess ? /s But more seriously, Z was for Zapad troops which were from the Western military regions (Belgorod, Rostov barrack setc), others had V for Vostok from the Siberian troops (Novosibirsk, etc). The O is for LDPR/DNR/Crimea troops IIRC.
mrpetruccio 5y ago
I am Ukrainian. Ukraine an Russia is a story of crazy imperial neighbor invading my country and killing my people.
- 0x737368 5y ago
VladislavWiz 5y ago
0x737368 5y ago
This is very cringe. To even imagine that the reason a country got invaded, knowing full well the repercussions that will follow, was because jealous old Putin got all shaky with impotent rage that his beautiful girlfriend called Ukraine with a blue dress and flaxen hair has left him. The first reason Russia invaded Ukraine is because Ukraine joining NATO(in before "but Ukraine could never have joined NATO!!" - yes it would have and NATO was pursuing that, look it up) would be catastrophical for Russia's defense. At that point the only option for defense from any invasion would have been nuclear armageddon - if say in 20 years NATO comes back and decides to annex Crimea would it be an easy choice for whoever's responsible to press the big red button or would it be nicer to defend it through conventional means? Secondly, Ukraine has found natural oil/gas reserves that would have competed with Russian exports. Thirdly, Ukraine has turned off water supply going from Dniepr river to Crimea making it very difficult for Russia to supply water to that area. I'm not saying that this justifies the invasion - war is a terrible thing and people on both sides are suffering, but would we also be surprised if USA invaded Mexico or Canada to stop it getting aligned with China? I wouldn't.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Yeah, about Crimea... you do remember that Russia took that earlier, right? Why do you have a problem with NATO (or Ukraine without NATO) taking it back? And, no, Ukraine was not joining NATO. If you have evidence otherwise, supply something more than "look it up".
  - 0x737368 5y ago
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Inviting Georgia and Ukraine to start proceeding down the path toward membership. That's... not a short path. You can regard that as "NATO pursuing it"; to me it sounds more like "the door is open". And, 2008? Yeah, Ukraine was sure on an express track toward rapid admission, weren't they? Under NATO rules, Ukraine could not have been admitted with ongoing territorial conflicts. That means they would have to renounce Crimea and Donbass. That was, shall we say, not on the brink of happening. And, you can save the insulting condescension. Your post would be more persuasive without it.
cmurf 5y ago
Continuing the metaphor of the title: Russia is the abusive spouse that can't take no for an answer and is becoming a murderer, perhaps murder-suicide. Central to Putanism specifically and even Russia now generally, there is a strong belief that Russia beat the Nazis, Russia can beat anyone, and Russia is superior. Limitless expansion of its borders is considered Russia's right, ergo anyone who doesn't want to be Russified is a Nazi, and Ukraine rejecting Russia means they are Nazis. I think Western media has been too dismissive of the Russian belief Nazis are running rampant, portraying it mainly as divorced from reality. And not making the connection just how totally incompatible this worldview is in the post-WW2 and U.N. charter system to which Russia is a signatory. I seriously think we are witnessing the end of that post-WW2 era, back to "might makes right".

43 points by Procedural 5y ago

not really in favor of this characterizing countries thing. it’s like how China calls Hongkong it’s child and it finally was returned to its mother in 1997. Nowadays same terminology is applied to Taiwan, I’m just disgusted by this figure of speech, saying China is a mother and hongkong and Taiwan are her children just signals that you don’t want to treat them with respect in the first place. Same thing with this story, saying Russia is husband signals the bias in author’s mind: Ukraine is the weaker and smaller one thus the wife. sorry for my broken English, hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say…

trinsic2 5y ago
Yea Politicians use that language to try and convince political states and countries are things, but they are just ideas that people can either believe in or not. I like the idea of using the OP as a metaphor to help everyone understand the dynamics. It doesn't mean that in practice it really exists.
Procedural 5y ago
Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union. They spoke Russian. They married Russians. It happened. But it's a history now. No one can force-continue the marriage.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  > It happened. Well, before that there was another war (the Red Army vs. the Ukrainian nationalists around 1920); and Stalin killing millions of Ukrainians in the man-made famine in the early 1930; followed by the mass repressions in the late 1930s, with hundreds of thousands executed. It's never been a happy marriage, not really.
  - Procedural 5y ago
    I agree. This is another reason to stop trying to make it happen, when it wasn't a happy marriage in the first place.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  You mean Ukraine was a part of Rus and Russian empires going back 1000 years. It goes way beyond the Soviet Union...
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    Yes there are ethnic ties between them. That doesn't mean they are identical, or that one should rule the other. Should Scotland rule Ireland (or vice versa) because they are both Gaelic peoples that were part of the British Empire?
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      I said nothing about 'should'. Simply history. Ukraine was never a 'country' until briefly in the 20's then the 90's. Ukrainians have been Rus, or Russians, or Ruthenians, etc... for most of their history. They were once a single people. That's just a fact. The differences in identity are the fact that western Ukraine has at times belonged to Austria-Hungary or Poland. Or the fact the Cossacks carved out small states amidst foreign rule. And likewise Novgorod and Moscow had small states during Muslim domination which also contributed to a unique Russian identity. It's not as simple as 'Ukraine was part of USSR for a generation. My ancestors were Ukrainian, spoke Ukrainian, identified as Ukrainian but were from Austria-Hungary and officially were called 'Ruthenians'. The same thing that separates Russia and Ukraine is what separates the Czech Republic and Slovakia. One people (ish), just different historical circumstances at times creating different identities and eventually states. Ukraine should be its own country today. But not because of made up history, simply because today they want to.
      - torstenvl 5y ago
        Ruthenia was called Ruthenia because it was in the West, and part of the Polish-Lithuanian Empire, so went by the Latin name for Rus. Russia is derived from the Greek. Even centuries ago they were distinct. And before then, before there were nation-states as we think of them now, the principality of Kyiv was distinct from the principality of Mosovy. Kyiv was not subordinated to Moscow until Peter, Elizabeth, and Catherine, in the 1600s and 1700s -- more than a millennium after Kyiv's founding. The history is not made up. https://www.timemaps.com/history/russia-979ad/ https://www.timemaps.com/history/russia-979ad/
jchiu1106 5y ago
Considering how mainland China (PRC) and Taiwan (ROC) are separated, they're more like siblings, with ROC being the elder one.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  ROC is the original government of the whole of China (mainland plus Taiwan). PRC is the johnny-come-lately rebels. So I'd say that ROC is not only the elder, the PRC is the illegitimate half-brother.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Many Taiwanese see the ROC as invaders, they would rather have neither the PRC nor the ROC governing over them, and this is what the PRC is most against (at least if Taiwan is controlled by the ROC, it can still be seen as a civil dispute over who controls China, vs a question of an independent Taiwan). Japan actually treated Taiwan more as a province rather than a colony, which led to a lot of distrust between the islanders and mainlanders when the ROC regained control of the island.

trinsic2 5y ago

I was thinking about writing something exactly from this perspective today. Based on what Putin said about Ukraine, how it use to be part of Russia. The fact that Ukraine has declared their independence from Russia is exactly like an abusive husband that won't let go of the relationship and he is willing to put everyone in jeopardy to get his selfish desire of grandiosity met. Everyone one around him sees that its over and nothing is going change that. No amount of violence is going to bring everything back to the glory days. Its over, move on.

0x737368 5y ago

MrDisposable 5y ago

I feel that the Russian identity has been dealt a fatal blow. The load-bearing pillar of the Russian identity is the idea that we are a nation of defenders, who fought off the biggest invasion in history. We defend, not intrude. If you remember history, there was another guy who attacked a slavic country, in the morning, without declaring war, hoping for a blitzkrieg. We are that guy now. I thought about renouncing my Russian nationality. I may have Russian origins, and I may speak Russian, and I may live in Russia – but my nationality would be blank. Null. Nothing. Empty string. I decided against that. By renouncing my nationality I would also renounce Lomonosov, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Tchaikovsky, Vavilov, Surikov, Vrubel, Tarkovsky, Korolyev, and Gagarin. I refuse to let a single tyrant tarnish the Russian contribution to human civilization.

watersb 5y ago
Nothing wrong with being proud of your nation's accomplishments, and being appalled at its violence. We have been shown the strength of our culture, and the fragility of our institutions, in this era of super-power authoritarianism. I don't know what the world will be like in ten years. Post-Trump, post-Putin, and hopefully still able to support human life.
Koshkin 5y ago
> a nation of defenders Nonsense. Russian history is full of invasions. That is how empires are created, and that is their mode of existence.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  To be fair, more often than not, Russia was on the receiving end of invasions. Even when they invaded others, it was often in response to being invaded first. Look at how the Russian empire formed: it was Moscow re-taking all the Kyivan Rus lands that were conquered by Muslim invaders. Or all the European countries that attacked/invaded Russian lands: Great Britain, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Poland-Lithuania and I'm probably forgetting some. So yes, it's fairly apt to say that, more often than not, Russia was defending its own lands. The fact that Russia is wrong today doesn't mean that it hasn't been wronged many, many times before. A parallel is that many abusers were once abused themselves (and yes the cycle needs to end). Also, Ukraine's unfortunate history: they were the part of Rus/Russian lands that almost always were passed back and forth. The name "Ukraine" itself suggests that...

newprint 5y ago

As native speaker of Russian language, large part of my Russian identity was the fact, that I was raised in household of WW2 veteran(I was born and lived in one of the ex-Soviet republics, not in Russia). I always viewed Russian army as liberators. In the light of current events, this part of me took a huge blow and I'm not sure, I will ever reconcile. Russian army that is in Ukraine are bunch of untrained, uncoordinated thugs that have zero regards to human life and lead by war criminals. I have nothing but contempt for Russian Army. What up with the new "Z" Swastika ?

pomdapi 5y ago
A response to the 2-in-1 superposed/slanted N-Z- of Azov I guess ? /s But more seriously, Z was for Zapad troops which were from the Western military regions (Belgorod, Rostov barrack setc), others had V for Vostok from the Siberian troops (Novosibirsk, etc). The O is for LDPR/DNR/Crimea troops IIRC.

mrpetruccio 5y ago

I am Ukrainian. Ukraine an Russia is a story of crazy imperial neighbor invading my country and killing my people.

0x737368 5y ago

VladislavWiz 5y ago

0x737368 5y ago

This is very cringe. To even imagine that the reason a country got invaded, knowing full well the repercussions that will follow, was because jealous old Putin got all shaky with impotent rage that his beautiful girlfriend called Ukraine with a blue dress and flaxen hair has left him. The first reason Russia invaded Ukraine is because Ukraine joining NATO(in before "but Ukraine could never have joined NATO!!" - yes it would have and NATO was pursuing that, look it up) would be catastrophical for Russia's defense. At that point the only option for defense from any invasion would have been nuclear armageddon - if say in 20 years NATO comes back and decides to annex Crimea would it be an easy choice for whoever's responsible to press the big red button or would it be nicer to defend it through conventional means? Secondly, Ukraine has found natural oil/gas reserves that would have competed with Russian exports. Thirdly, Ukraine has turned off water supply going from Dniepr river to Crimea making it very difficult for Russia to supply water to that area. I'm not saying that this justifies the invasion - war is a terrible thing and people on both sides are suffering, but would we also be surprised if USA invaded Mexico or Canada to stop it getting aligned with China? I wouldn't.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Yeah, about Crimea... you do remember that Russia took that earlier, right? Why do you have a problem with NATO (or Ukraine without NATO) taking it back? And, no, Ukraine was not joining NATO. If you have evidence otherwise, supply something more than "look it up".
- 0x737368 5y ago
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Inviting Georgia and Ukraine to start proceeding down the path toward membership. That's... not a short path. You can regard that as "NATO pursuing it"; to me it sounds more like "the door is open". And, 2008? Yeah, Ukraine was sure on an express track toward rapid admission, weren't they? Under NATO rules, Ukraine could not have been admitted with ongoing territorial conflicts. That means they would have to renounce Crimea and Donbass. That was, shall we say, not on the brink of happening. And, you can save the insulting condescension. Your post would be more persuasive without it.

cmurf 5y ago

Continuing the metaphor of the title: Russia is the abusive spouse that can't take no for an answer and is becoming a murderer, perhaps murder-suicide. Central to Putanism specifically and even Russia now generally, there is a strong belief that Russia beat the Nazis, Russia can beat anyone, and Russia is superior. Limitless expansion of its borders is considered Russia's right, ergo anyone who doesn't want to be Russified is a Nazi, and Ukraine rejecting Russia means they are Nazis. I think Western media has been too dismissive of the Russian belief Nazis are running rampant, portraying it mainly as divorced from reality. And not making the connection just how totally incompatible this worldview is in the post-WW2 and U.N. charter system to which Russia is a signatory. I seriously think we are witnessing the end of that post-WW2 era, back to "might makes right".