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I want to donate to a cause that Justin Trudeau finds "unacceptable." I want to send money to Ukraine. I think this week we saw problems with tradfi in the deve

I want to donate to a cause that Justin Trudeau finds "unacceptable." I want to send money to Ukraine. I think this week we saw problems with tradfi in the developed and developing world. And of course in the good ole US of A, I hear stories of civil forfeiture every other month.

woodruffw 5y ago
“Civil forfeiture” does not and has never meant “fiat forfeiture.” If the government tells you to forfeit your assets (justly or unjustly!), you can be certain that they will not be amused or deterred by attempts to hide those assets via cryptocurrency.
- vageli 5y ago
  > “Civil forfeiture” does not and has never meant “fiat forfeiture.” If the government tells you to forfeit your assets (justly or unjustly!), you can be certain that they will not be amused or deterred by attempts to hide those assets via cryptocurrency. If they don't know it exists, they can't take it. Just like I can cross the border with a hundred thousand in crypto in a wallet. And even if they find the hardware wallet, that is not enough to seize the funds, especially if it's a brain wallet or something similar. The same simply doesn't exist for fiat.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    > If they don't know it exists, they can't take it. I've said this before: any financial system that turns a presumed crime (the efficient cause of the asset seizure) into direct evidence of another crime (trying to hide assets) is not a good financial system. What you're describing doesn't exist in practice for any medium of exchange.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    Just like I can cross the border with a hundred thousand in crypto in a wallet. No, you can't. You can cross the border with the private key for a wallet containing the addresses of a hundred thousand units of crypto, but the crypto isn't in your wallet (either kind), it's in the blockchain ledger of whatever cryptocurrency you're using. And this is an important distinction from money, because the money is actually in your wallet and you can use it without an internet connection, but the crypto is actually in the cloud and requires an internet connection to access and use.
    - vageli 5y ago
      Interesting. Just for fun, thinking through this more I could just give someone my private key instead of transferring funds on the blockchain. Then the transaction does not require the internet, only the verification of funds in the wallet (which could be elided if the participants so chose).
bentlegen 5y ago
Note that folks who claimed their bank accounts were frozen because they were “donors to the convoy” never actually verified that that actually happened [1]. At the same time the government, the RCMP, and the banks have come out and said “that didn’t happen” [2]. Last, the government ceded its emergency powers after about a week total, despite claims on HN and various thinkpieces that they would be extended in perpetuity [3]. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mp-mark-strahl-convoy-protest-briane-bank-account-frozen-1.6360132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mp-mark-stra... [2] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-and-ottawa-say-convoy-protest-donors-wont-have-accounts/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-an... [3] https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/02/23/justin-trudeau-to-lift-emergencies-act-sources-say.html https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/02/23/justin-t...
- pricees 5y ago
  And then there was GoFundMe and GiveSendGo. I am not arguing the politics here. I am responding to the critique that crypto is a solution in search of a problem.
  - Yetioko 5y ago
    Those are companies with policies. They have to listen to laws. Guess what happens if crypto would become bigger and actually a problem for all states globally? Do you really think they will just accept this? In which way do you think they literlay can't control crypto anymore? Just because its digital and on the internet, doesn't mean its digital only. It is not and as long as that is, its easy for a state to make sure crypto will never ever reach this level. You don't believe a state can do this? Just a small reminder about the great firewall from china. There are countries who shut down their internet, literaly.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  The reason they didn't extend them was that they didn't want to go through the senate vote, and also because of the extreme controversy it caused. Trudeau had said earlier he wanted to extend them past the 30 days. So it's weird to say that the controversy and reactions were baseless because their intended goal was achieved. And that was to make Trudeau's decision as politically costly and controversial as possible. Also accounts were still seized over a protest, so it doesn't matter if it was from people donating or those who were protesting https://financialpost.com/fp-finance/banking/convoy-leader-denied-bail-as-canadian-officials-warn-of-unrest https://financialpost.com/fp-finance/banking/convoy-leader-d... (Url is weird and doesn't match the actual article)
colechristensen 5y ago
And how do you feel about economic sanctions for Russia, Putin, etc? (And crypto being a way to evade them) Do you think a cryptocurrency is any less susceptible to civil forfeiture than cash?
- pricees 5y ago
  You are correct, evading economic sanctions is another problem crypto solves. :) (I am not here to make any value judgments)
  - LightG 5y ago
    You've just made one.

woodruffw 5y ago

“Civil forfeiture” does not and has never meant “fiat forfeiture.” If the government tells you to forfeit your assets (justly or unjustly!), you can be certain that they will not be amused or deterred by attempts to hide those assets via cryptocurrency.

vageli 5y ago
> “Civil forfeiture” does not and has never meant “fiat forfeiture.” If the government tells you to forfeit your assets (justly or unjustly!), you can be certain that they will not be amused or deterred by attempts to hide those assets via cryptocurrency. If they don't know it exists, they can't take it. Just like I can cross the border with a hundred thousand in crypto in a wallet. And even if they find the hardware wallet, that is not enough to seize the funds, especially if it's a brain wallet or something similar. The same simply doesn't exist for fiat.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  > If they don't know it exists, they can't take it. I've said this before: any financial system that turns a presumed crime (the efficient cause of the asset seizure) into direct evidence of another crime (trying to hide assets) is not a good financial system. What you're describing doesn't exist in practice for any medium of exchange.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  Just like I can cross the border with a hundred thousand in crypto in a wallet. No, you can't. You can cross the border with the private key for a wallet containing the addresses of a hundred thousand units of crypto, but the crypto isn't in your wallet (either kind), it's in the blockchain ledger of whatever cryptocurrency you're using. And this is an important distinction from money, because the money is actually in your wallet and you can use it without an internet connection, but the crypto is actually in the cloud and requires an internet connection to access and use.
  - vageli 5y ago
    Interesting. Just for fun, thinking through this more I could just give someone my private key instead of transferring funds on the blockchain. Then the transaction does not require the internet, only the verification of funds in the wallet (which could be elided if the participants so chose).

bentlegen 5y ago

Note that folks who claimed their bank accounts were frozen because they were “donors to the convoy” never actually verified that that actually happened [1]. At the same time the government, the RCMP, and the banks have come out and said “that didn’t happen” [2]. Last, the government ceded its emergency powers after about a week total, despite claims on HN and various thinkpieces that they would be extended in perpetuity [3]. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mp-mark-strahl-convoy-protest-briane-bank-account-frozen-1.6360132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mp-mark-stra... [2] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-and-ottawa-say-convoy-protest-donors-wont-have-accounts/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-an... [3] https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/02/23/justin-trudeau-to-lift-emergencies-act-sources-say.html https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/02/23/justin-t...

pricees 5y ago
And then there was GoFundMe and GiveSendGo. I am not arguing the politics here. I am responding to the critique that crypto is a solution in search of a problem.
- Yetioko 5y ago
  Those are companies with policies. They have to listen to laws. Guess what happens if crypto would become bigger and actually a problem for all states globally? Do you really think they will just accept this? In which way do you think they literlay can't control crypto anymore? Just because its digital and on the internet, doesn't mean its digital only. It is not and as long as that is, its easy for a state to make sure crypto will never ever reach this level. You don't believe a state can do this? Just a small reminder about the great firewall from china. There are countries who shut down their internet, literaly.
mardifoufs 5y ago
The reason they didn't extend them was that they didn't want to go through the senate vote, and also because of the extreme controversy it caused. Trudeau had said earlier he wanted to extend them past the 30 days. So it's weird to say that the controversy and reactions were baseless because their intended goal was achieved. And that was to make Trudeau's decision as politically costly and controversial as possible. Also accounts were still seized over a protest, so it doesn't matter if it was from people donating or those who were protesting https://financialpost.com/fp-finance/banking/convoy-leader-denied-bail-as-canadian-officials-warn-of-unrest https://financialpost.com/fp-finance/banking/convoy-leader-d... (Url is weird and doesn't match the actual article)

colechristensen 5y ago

And how do you feel about economic sanctions for Russia, Putin, etc? (And crypto being a way to evade them) Do you think a cryptocurrency is any less susceptible to civil forfeiture than cash?

pricees 5y ago
You are correct, evading economic sanctions is another problem crypto solves. :) (I am not here to make any value judgments)
- LightG 5y ago
  You've just made one.