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> the idea that Ukraine has a Nazi government is a farce; for all of its considerable problems with corruption, Ukraine’s current government was democratically

> the idea that Ukraine has a Nazi government is a farce; for all of its considerable problems with corruption, Ukraine’s current government was democratically elected... So were the Nazis, though. I'm not arguing that Ukraine's government are "Nazis", just that despots and extremists can be elected too...

antupis 5y ago
Ukraina president is Russian speaking Jew so this Nazi rhetoric is just stupid.
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  “Nazi” is often used as a general slur against nationalists.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    There is nationalist party in Ukraine and they got 1% in elections. The elections were free and every term somebody else is in the government. Surprisingly never the nationalists tho. Also they want to join EU (as all nazis do of course). Meanwhile actually nationalist and imperialist Putin invaded 3 different countries during his 22 years of governing Russia. And he hasn't held fair elections there for a long time. So yeah Ukraine is nazi.
    - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
      I didn’t say that Ukraine is Nazi.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    No, it usually isn't. It is usually used to talk about white supremacists of a particular ideological bent.
    - homonculus1 5y ago
      "White supremacist" is also a slur against nationalists...
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        It is possible to be a white nationalist and not be a white supremacist, but there is considerable overlap between these groups.
      - selfhoster11 5y ago
        Unless the nation happens to be majority non-white.
    - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
      The only time when it isn’t, it’s when it is used to mean anything vaguely bad.
    - coolso 5y ago
      This argument can only be made in good faith if you completely ignore the events of the past 5 years, where anyone who was outspoken but didn’t tow the CNN/neolib line on just about any of the big issues was either directly or indirectly called a fascist or a neo-Nazi. Regularly.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        It's perfectly possible to be a fascist without being a neo-Nazi. And CNN doesn't set policy or make people say fascist things.
- watwut 5y ago
  Yeah. And it is not like Russia did not had its own considerable white supremacist movements - more successful then those in Ukraine.
watwut 5y ago
> So were the Nazis, though. That is not an actual full truth there. First, there was considerable threat of violence and violence in an attempts to prevent wrong people from voting in those elections. Second, the actual takeover of power after election did not respected German constitution at the time. And that vote was done with brownshirts lining up around the room, ready to physically attack.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Well, the first election was as legit as any other election before when measured by Weimar Republic standards. As was the process of forming a coalition government. The second election so was a total power grab and the opposite of legitimate. When you visit the Reichstag in Berlin you can see all the postboxes of past members of parliament, including people like Göring and Hitler. Because the first time they were elected legitimately. After that, and until the formation of the BRD, those boxes show a gap for obvious reasons. We would all do ourselves a favor by acknowledging the fact that the Nazis were, at one point, a legitimate political party in a legitimate democracy. Because there are a lot of lessons to be drawn from that very fact.
  - watwut 5y ago
    They were legal political party that got to parlament. They got 30% votes roughly. One of their tactics was considerable amount of street violence, both during elections to prevent wrong people from voting and to make them afraid of voting for wrong party. And also considerable violence to create chaose that would need order. People like to pretend those were normal elections to make a point about fragility of democracy. But, the real point is maybe that parties that are violent before getting power continue to be violent after. And maybe that another point is that threats and violence around election day and toward voters matter - and makes those elections not really free. Afaik, there was no similar violence and threats in Ukraine. Their elections and Nazi elections were not comparable. Weinmar with all its political violence for years (and not just from nazi) is not comparable to Ukraine before Russian invasion either.
    - 5y ago

antupis 5y ago

Ukraina president is Russian speaking Jew so this Nazi rhetoric is just stupid.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
“Nazi” is often used as a general slur against nationalists.
- ajuc 5y ago
  There is nationalist party in Ukraine and they got 1% in elections. The elections were free and every term somebody else is in the government. Surprisingly never the nationalists tho. Also they want to join EU (as all nazis do of course). Meanwhile actually nationalist and imperialist Putin invaded 3 different countries during his 22 years of governing Russia. And he hasn't held fair elections there for a long time. So yeah Ukraine is nazi.
  - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
    I didn’t say that Ukraine is Nazi.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  No, it usually isn't. It is usually used to talk about white supremacists of a particular ideological bent.
  - homonculus1 5y ago
    "White supremacist" is also a slur against nationalists...
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      It is possible to be a white nationalist and not be a white supremacist, but there is considerable overlap between these groups.
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      Unless the nation happens to be majority non-white.
  - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
    The only time when it isn’t, it’s when it is used to mean anything vaguely bad.
  - coolso 5y ago
    This argument can only be made in good faith if you completely ignore the events of the past 5 years, where anyone who was outspoken but didn’t tow the CNN/neolib line on just about any of the big issues was either directly or indirectly called a fascist or a neo-Nazi. Regularly.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      It's perfectly possible to be a fascist without being a neo-Nazi. And CNN doesn't set policy or make people say fascist things.
watwut 5y ago
Yeah. And it is not like Russia did not had its own considerable white supremacist movements - more successful then those in Ukraine.

watwut 5y ago

> So were the Nazis, though. That is not an actual full truth there. First, there was considerable threat of violence and violence in an attempts to prevent wrong people from voting in those elections. Second, the actual takeover of power after election did not respected German constitution at the time. And that vote was done with brownshirts lining up around the room, ready to physically attack.

hef19898 5y ago
Well, the first election was as legit as any other election before when measured by Weimar Republic standards. As was the process of forming a coalition government. The second election so was a total power grab and the opposite of legitimate. When you visit the Reichstag in Berlin you can see all the postboxes of past members of parliament, including people like Göring and Hitler. Because the first time they were elected legitimately. After that, and until the formation of the BRD, those boxes show a gap for obvious reasons. We would all do ourselves a favor by acknowledging the fact that the Nazis were, at one point, a legitimate political party in a legitimate democracy. Because there are a lot of lessons to be drawn from that very fact.
- watwut 5y ago
  They were legal political party that got to parlament. They got 30% votes roughly. One of their tactics was considerable amount of street violence, both during elections to prevent wrong people from voting and to make them afraid of voting for wrong party. And also considerable violence to create chaose that would need order. People like to pretend those were normal elections to make a point about fragility of democracy. But, the real point is maybe that parties that are violent before getting power continue to be violent after. And maybe that another point is that threats and violence around election day and toward voters matter - and makes those elections not really free. Afaik, there was no similar violence and threats in Ukraine. Their elections and Nazi elections were not comparable. Weinmar with all its political violence for years (and not just from nazi) is not comparable to Ukraine before Russian invasion either.
  - 5y ago