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When you will receive the bank wire from the exchange you need to provide to IRS the source of income. What will you say to them?

dpacmittal 5y ago
Just sell an NFT to yourself.
- wnevets 5y ago
  relevant https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/melania-trump-nft-auction/ https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/melania-trump-nft-auction/
rosndo 5y ago
You provide them accounting from your fake business which accepts only monero payments for digital goods and doesn’t keep access logs? This is really basic stuff. You will never be caught unless other evidence leads them from the original crime to you. Unless you fuck up it’s not possible to link incoming Moneroj to any specific source, this means that you can fairly easily hide your money laundering activities even from somebody with full visibility into your business.
- 323 5y ago
  You live in some fantasy land if you think you can just say "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off". Unlike criminal law where you are "innocent until proven guilty", in most AML/KYC situations you are "guilty until proven innocent".
  - rosndo 5y ago
    You’re being ridiculous. Nobody is going to look at you twice for selling 1000x$5000 cryptocurrency trading courses a year, or even double that. I’ve dealt with AML/KYC for cryptocurrency businesses with much higher volumes, nobody ever asked for anything crazy. Just basic accounting, website urls, linkedin profiles. > You live in some fantasy land if you think you can just say "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off" I think the only takeaway here is that “323” is too stupid and greedy to survive as a money launderer. Don’t try to cash out $100M in monero at once, live a wonderful life with $5-10M a year.
    - bduerst 5y ago
      >I’ve dealt with AML/KYC for cryptocurrency businesses with much higher volumes, nobody ever asked for anything crazy. Were they legit businesses or illegal? It makes a difference because there's more than just you and the KYC exchanges reporting, and it's survivor bias to assume they appear the same.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        Legal businesses, receiving much larger individual payments from a limited number of clients. > It makes a difference because there's more than just you and the KYC exchanges reporting, and it's survivor bias to assume they appear the same. Exchanges are usually the least of your problems, it’s the banks. Even very high risk businesses don’t face scrutiny which isn’t easily overcome when all of your incoming payments are anonymous and untraceable. It’s really not hard to create a fake ecommerce business that would be entirely indistinguishable from a real one.
        novok 5y ago
        If you watch the other economic activity and internet activity of that e-commerce business, you could deduce how much activity it might be generating. No real e-commerce biz doesn’t have ad spend or other marketing activities, no e-commerce biz doesn’t have a sell rate that is %100, etc. Much like how the irs audits laundromats via their water and power usage. Are they consuming enough water and electricity to justify their revenue?
        dannyw 5y ago
        nobody actually cares enough to bust money laundering if it's not causing publicly visible problems. White collar law enforcement is an illusion, backed by the occasional example. There are 13k FBI special agents and most have case loads focused on things like "murder" than some e-commerce website with traffic numbers that don't add up. A one hour cursory look on public clearnet hacking forums will surface hundreds of felonies by people with poor opsec, Feds scroll past them on a daily basis. It's not what they're after. And no, the IRS has been trimmed to bones for decades, they probably audit <10 laundromats via water and power analysis a year, the same way Apple built literally two iPhone recycling robots (that do a thousand devices a year) but spend millions on marketing.
  - fer 5y ago
    > "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off" That's pretty much the whole NFT craze, but without Monero which makes it even dumber.
Jerrrry 5y ago
Nothing, because of the 5th amendment. You pay taxes on stolen gains. The IRS is explicitly forbidden from reporting the gains themselves.
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  They have broken this rule.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Because of the "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" part? How does that stop the IRS from telling law enforcement that you've suddenly come into millions of unexplained dollars?
  - undersuit 5y ago
    You already have to be in trouble. The cops can have the IRS release your tax returns, the IRS doesn't call the cops(they have their own). >IRC 6103(i)(1) provides that, pursuant to court order, return information may be shared with law enforcement agencies for investigation and prosecution of non-tax criminal laws.
colinmhayes 5y ago
You've stumbled upon the main use case for NFTs.
boring_twenties 5y ago
I have received many wires from crypto exchanges to my account at a major US bank and have never been questioned about it.

dpacmittal 5y ago

Just sell an NFT to yourself.

wnevets 5y ago
relevant https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/melania-trump-nft-auction/ https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/melania-trump-nft-auction/

rosndo 5y ago

You provide them accounting from your fake business which accepts only monero payments for digital goods and doesn’t keep access logs? This is really basic stuff. You will never be caught unless other evidence leads them from the original crime to you. Unless you fuck up it’s not possible to link incoming Moneroj to any specific source, this means that you can fairly easily hide your money laundering activities even from somebody with full visibility into your business.

323 5y ago
You live in some fantasy land if you think you can just say "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off". Unlike criminal law where you are "innocent until proven guilty", in most AML/KYC situations you are "guilty until proven innocent".
- rosndo 5y ago
  You’re being ridiculous. Nobody is going to look at you twice for selling 1000x$5000 cryptocurrency trading courses a year, or even double that. I’ve dealt with AML/KYC for cryptocurrency businesses with much higher volumes, nobody ever asked for anything crazy. Just basic accounting, website urls, linkedin profiles. > You live in some fantasy land if you think you can just say "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off" I think the only takeaway here is that “323” is too stupid and greedy to survive as a money launderer. Don’t try to cash out $100M in monero at once, live a wonderful life with $5-10M a year.
  - bduerst 5y ago
    >I’ve dealt with AML/KYC for cryptocurrency businesses with much higher volumes, nobody ever asked for anything crazy. Were they legit businesses or illegal? It makes a difference because there's more than just you and the KYC exchanges reporting, and it's survivor bias to assume they appear the same.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Legal businesses, receiving much larger individual payments from a limited number of clients. > It makes a difference because there's more than just you and the KYC exchanges reporting, and it's survivor bias to assume they appear the same. Exchanges are usually the least of your problems, it’s the banks. Even very high risk businesses don’t face scrutiny which isn’t easily overcome when all of your incoming payments are anonymous and untraceable. It’s really not hard to create a fake ecommerce business that would be entirely indistinguishable from a real one.
      - novok 5y ago
        If you watch the other economic activity and internet activity of that e-commerce business, you could deduce how much activity it might be generating. No real e-commerce biz doesn’t have ad spend or other marketing activities, no e-commerce biz doesn’t have a sell rate that is %100, etc. Much like how the irs audits laundromats via their water and power usage. Are they consuming enough water and electricity to justify their revenue?
        dannyw 5y ago
        nobody actually cares enough to bust money laundering if it's not causing publicly visible problems. White collar law enforcement is an illusion, backed by the occasional example. There are 13k FBI special agents and most have case loads focused on things like "murder" than some e-commerce website with traffic numbers that don't add up. A one hour cursory look on public clearnet hacking forums will surface hundreds of felonies by people with poor opsec, Feds scroll past them on a daily basis. It's not what they're after. And no, the IRS has been trimmed to bones for decades, they probably audit <10 laundromats via water and power analysis a year, the same way Apple built literally two iPhone recycling robots (that do a thousand devices a year) but spend millions on marketing.
- fer 5y ago
  > "oh, I just received 100 dollars worth of Monero from 1 million unknown entities, my $100 million is totally legit, fuck off" That's pretty much the whole NFT craze, but without Monero which makes it even dumber.

Jerrrry 5y ago

Nothing, because of the 5th amendment. You pay taxes on stolen gains. The IRS is explicitly forbidden from reporting the gains themselves.

CheezeIt 5y ago
They have broken this rule.
colinmhayes 5y ago
Because of the "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" part? How does that stop the IRS from telling law enforcement that you've suddenly come into millions of unexplained dollars?
- undersuit 5y ago
  You already have to be in trouble. The cops can have the IRS release your tax returns, the IRS doesn't call the cops(they have their own). >IRC 6103(i)(1) provides that, pursuant to court order, return information may be shared with law enforcement agencies for investigation and prosecution of non-tax criminal laws.

colinmhayes 5y ago

You've stumbled upon the main use case for NFTs.

boring_twenties 5y ago

I have received many wires from crypto exchanges to my account at a major US bank and have never been questioned about it.