7 ms·

Do you know if the immune response from the vaccine also causes that damage or not?

lucd 5y ago
The vaccine antigen is only a small part of the virus. Furthermore is was modified and is inert. https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/tiny-tweak-behind-COVID-19/98/i38 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/tiny-tweak-behi... Because of international pharmacovigilance we know that ARNm vaccine induce some myocarditis and pericarditis, at a much lower rate than the virus and less severe.
- inciampati 5y ago
  There is not evidence that heart inflammation after vaccination is less common or severe than after COVID-19 infection. For instance: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... suggests rates several fold higher for vaccination than infection. Not to say that on balance vaccination is anything but preferable to naive infection, but it's not a side effect free panacea.
  - arisAlexis 5y ago
    This has been debunked many times
    - Asooka 5y ago
      I don't see you posting links to papers that support your assertion.
      - Hallucinaut 5y ago
        Amongst others here's one. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... See my comment above on why that paper tells us nothing about unvaccinated myocarditis rates.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Hallucinaut 5y ago
    Thanks for that link. It contradicts previous studies that put the risk of myocarditis from unvaccinated COVID infection at between 6 and 15 times higher than that from vaccination (and 30x general baseline rate). So I read through it and in fact, it doesn't say what you assert to say it does. This is comparing vaccinated Vs vaccinated+COVID. See the comments from vepe for full explanation.
    - croon 5y ago
      Is it comparing vaccinated vs vaccinated + infection or simply vaccinated vs infection (regardless of vaccination)? Do we have data on specifically unvaccinated infections? Otherwise we can only speculate on whether the long side effects of infection are less severe with vaccines than without. Considering the general hospitalization rate between unvaccinated vs vaccinated, I know what my guess would be.
- mikevm 5y ago
  The spike protein in the vaccine is not fully inert: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8084611 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8084611 > The free-floating Spike proteins synthetized by cells targeted by vaccine and destroyed by the immune response circulate in the blood and systematically interact with angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptors expressed by a variety of cells including platelets, thereby promoting ACE2 internalization and degradation. These reactions may ultimately lead to platelet aggregation, thrombosis and inflammation mediated by several mechanisms including platelet ACE2 receptors. Whereas Phase III vaccine trials generally excluded participants with previous immunization, vaccination of huge populations in the real life will inevitably include individuals with preexisting immunity. This might lead to excessively enhanced inflammatory and thrombotic reactions in occasional subjects. Further research is urgently needed in this area.
  - echelon 5y ago
    In the case of vaccine only / no infection, is vaccine-mediated inflammation long lasting and damaging? These effects in the paper (platelet aggregation, thrombosis) seem to be capable of causing permanent harm. Platelet aggregation seems like it would cause small amounts of systemic endothelial damage, atherosclerosis, thombrosis, ... The level of inflammation no doubt varies on a case by case / individual basis, but is it possible that nobody gets out of the pandemic without some level of stress on their pulmonary and circulatory systems? To state this succinctly, did Covid (whether infected or vaccinated) shave a few days off of all of our lives?
  - rsfern 5y ago
    That paper was interesting and the bit about clinical trials is important, but they don’t really offer much evidence that there are substantial concentrations of free floating spike proteins in the blood following vaccination, or that this would be the cause of the inflammatory and thrombotic reactions, vs just the more general immune response As far as I can tell they’re just citing this one paper about the ACE2 degradation, and the study doesn’t directly address SARS-CoV-2 infection or vaccination at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4231883/?report=reader https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4231883/?r...
- cedivad 5y ago
  50% and lower rate (the hk children myocarditis study) isn't a "much lower rate". Factor in omnicron and the clear difference between vaccinating everyone and 10% of society getting the virus and unsolvable questions should begin to arise.
  - dtech 5y ago
    99%+ eventually getting infected is more likely. Multiple countries already have confirmed infections over 10%.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      But that's just an assumption. Many people seem to have pre-existing immunity. A study was done in which unvaccinated, non previously infected volunteers actually lay down in bed for a while with SARS-CoV-2 infected liquid in their noses (eww). So they were unequivocally exposed to a massive dose but only about half got COVID. There is no explanation for this within the bounds of the assumptions made by authorities. In reality, even if you get Omicron now it's so mild it's unlikely to cause any more heart damage than any other common cold. The danger has passed. Except that, almost everyone decided to massively expose themselves to spike protein over and over. So if spikes cause heart damage and they do, especially when the vaccine gets into the bloodstream, then the vaccines will do more damage than the virus could ever do simply because nobody has pre-existing immunity to it.
      - nradov 5y ago
        Some level of pre-existing immunity due to prior exposure to other similar coronaviruses is possible but hasn't been confirmed. https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(21)00571-3/fulltext https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(21)00571-3/ful... Many patients who are exposed to SARS-CoV-2 quickly fight off the infection with an innate immune response before the adaptive immune response really engages. That can happen with no pre-existing immunity. Some people just have better immune systems.
        5y ago
vegai_ 5y ago
The vaccine never (< 0.05%) causes hospitalization, so it never causes serious damage to the cardiovascular system.
- GameOfFrowns 5y ago
  > so it never causes serious damage to the cardiovascular system. That is quite the assertive statement in the light of all these public cases of vaccinated athletes keeling over. Is this flamebait?
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    >Is this flamebait? Well, not intentionally, but people are a bit crazy these days apparently.
- WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
  - magicalist 5y ago
    The PCR test will not detect the vaccine, so all we have to accept here is hundreds of thousands of faked PCR results. Why stop there? Maybe no one has died of anything but the vaccine since the start of 2021? We can't possibly know since apparently the medical fraud is omnipresent.
    - jodrellblank 5y ago
      > We can't possibly know For that to happen, COVID would have to either kill nobody in 2020 so it could continue that in 2021, or abruptly stop killing people in 2021 (by what mechanism?) as soon as vaccines were rolled out anywhere (but not in places where they weren’t rolled out, how would it know?), and all vaccines would have to have the same effect despite working in different ways.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      According to Steve Kirsch the medical fraud is so omnipresent even the researchers he directly funded were guilty of it because their data stubbornly disagreed with him about the cures he wanted to find!
samwillis 5y ago
Useless anecdotal evidence from my wife’s hairdresser, she has just been diagnosed with Myocarditis after having a Moderna booster, she thinks it’s linked… Could be linked, probably not.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lima 5y ago
  There's a known, well-established but very low risk of Myocarditis with mRNA vaccines. Like you say, a single data point is useless.
- samwillis 5y ago
  Just to clarify my point here (which has been deservedly down voted), I found it interesting that someone who is fully vaxed (as am I) and believes in the vaccines thinks they may have had a significant adverse effect. I think this shows how people are approaching it. They are excepting of the fact that they may have adverse reaction in incredibly rare cases but understand that the vaccine is needed. The possibility, albeit incredibly unlikely, of as adverse affect has been accepted by the public as ok. In her case she actually has some other health concerns that may well turn out to be the cause.
Alex3917 5y ago
> Do you know if the immune response from the vaccine also causes that damage or not? The vaccine appears to cause minor damage, but more likely from the spike protein than from the immune response. C.f. this article: https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-coronavirus-vaccines-may-cause-long-covid-symptoms https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-coronavir... "She says she has preliminary evidence that vaccination can lead to microclots, although in most cases they go unnoticed and quickly disappear—an effect she and a colleague saw in their own blood and that of eight other healthy volunteers, which they sampled after their vaccinations." The clotting issues would presumably come from the spike protein binding with your ACE2 receptors and downregulating them. Of course it's kind of moot, since empirically we know that getting the vaccine has a hugely positive expected value.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I think this should be researched further. There are countries that are more or less unvaccinated and can serve as a control group. Without that you simply cannot answer the question.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    You don’t need, and in fact lose validity, using entire countries as control groups
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      Obviously, but you need people to be not vaccinated. But it still is the only way to sensibly differentiate effects of Covid and the vaccine itself if the spike protein causes damage. I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test. There is no alternative to this and it should have been done before any mandates came up in my opinion.
      - Alex3917 5y ago
        > I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test. There are already studies comparing the mortality risk of those who got the vaccines against those who didn't, among only people who didn't get COVID. If you're worried about the vaccines, just take them 8 weeks apart instead of 3, and/or take an ACE inhibitor first to up-regulate your ACE2 receptors.

lucd 5y ago

The vaccine antigen is only a small part of the virus. Furthermore is was modified and is inert. https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/tiny-tweak-behind-COVID-19/98/i38 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/tiny-tweak-behi... Because of international pharmacovigilance we know that ARNm vaccine induce some myocarditis and pericarditis, at a much lower rate than the virus and less severe.

inciampati 5y ago
There is not evidence that heart inflammation after vaccination is less common or severe than after COVID-19 infection. For instance: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... suggests rates several fold higher for vaccination than infection. Not to say that on balance vaccination is anything but preferable to naive infection, but it's not a side effect free panacea.
- arisAlexis 5y ago
  This has been debunked many times
  - Asooka 5y ago
    I don't see you posting links to papers that support your assertion.
    - Hallucinaut 5y ago
      Amongst others here's one. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v... See my comment above on why that paper tells us nothing about unvaccinated myocarditis rates.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Hallucinaut 5y ago
  Thanks for that link. It contradicts previous studies that put the risk of myocarditis from unvaccinated COVID infection at between 6 and 15 times higher than that from vaccination (and 30x general baseline rate). So I read through it and in fact, it doesn't say what you assert to say it does. This is comparing vaccinated Vs vaccinated+COVID. See the comments from vepe for full explanation.
  - croon 5y ago
    Is it comparing vaccinated vs vaccinated + infection or simply vaccinated vs infection (regardless of vaccination)? Do we have data on specifically unvaccinated infections? Otherwise we can only speculate on whether the long side effects of infection are less severe with vaccines than without. Considering the general hospitalization rate between unvaccinated vs vaccinated, I know what my guess would be.
mikevm 5y ago
The spike protein in the vaccine is not fully inert: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8084611 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8084611 > The free-floating Spike proteins synthetized by cells targeted by vaccine and destroyed by the immune response circulate in the blood and systematically interact with angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptors expressed by a variety of cells including platelets, thereby promoting ACE2 internalization and degradation. These reactions may ultimately lead to platelet aggregation, thrombosis and inflammation mediated by several mechanisms including platelet ACE2 receptors. Whereas Phase III vaccine trials generally excluded participants with previous immunization, vaccination of huge populations in the real life will inevitably include individuals with preexisting immunity. This might lead to excessively enhanced inflammatory and thrombotic reactions in occasional subjects. Further research is urgently needed in this area.
- echelon 5y ago
  In the case of vaccine only / no infection, is vaccine-mediated inflammation long lasting and damaging? These effects in the paper (platelet aggregation, thrombosis) seem to be capable of causing permanent harm. Platelet aggregation seems like it would cause small amounts of systemic endothelial damage, atherosclerosis, thombrosis, ... The level of inflammation no doubt varies on a case by case / individual basis, but is it possible that nobody gets out of the pandemic without some level of stress on their pulmonary and circulatory systems? To state this succinctly, did Covid (whether infected or vaccinated) shave a few days off of all of our lives?
- rsfern 5y ago
  That paper was interesting and the bit about clinical trials is important, but they don’t really offer much evidence that there are substantial concentrations of free floating spike proteins in the blood following vaccination, or that this would be the cause of the inflammatory and thrombotic reactions, vs just the more general immune response As far as I can tell they’re just citing this one paper about the ACE2 degradation, and the study doesn’t directly address SARS-CoV-2 infection or vaccination at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4231883/?report=reader https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4231883/?r...
cedivad 5y ago
50% and lower rate (the hk children myocarditis study) isn't a "much lower rate". Factor in omnicron and the clear difference between vaccinating everyone and 10% of society getting the virus and unsolvable questions should begin to arise.
- dtech 5y ago
  99%+ eventually getting infected is more likely. Multiple countries already have confirmed infections over 10%.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    But that's just an assumption. Many people seem to have pre-existing immunity. A study was done in which unvaccinated, non previously infected volunteers actually lay down in bed for a while with SARS-CoV-2 infected liquid in their noses (eww). So they were unequivocally exposed to a massive dose but only about half got COVID. There is no explanation for this within the bounds of the assumptions made by authorities. In reality, even if you get Omicron now it's so mild it's unlikely to cause any more heart damage than any other common cold. The danger has passed. Except that, almost everyone decided to massively expose themselves to spike protein over and over. So if spikes cause heart damage and they do, especially when the vaccine gets into the bloodstream, then the vaccines will do more damage than the virus could ever do simply because nobody has pre-existing immunity to it.
    - nradov 5y ago
      Some level of pre-existing immunity due to prior exposure to other similar coronaviruses is possible but hasn't been confirmed. https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(21)00571-3/fulltext https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(21)00571-3/ful... Many patients who are exposed to SARS-CoV-2 quickly fight off the infection with an innate immune response before the adaptive immune response really engages. That can happen with no pre-existing immunity. Some people just have better immune systems.
      - 5y ago

vegai_ 5y ago

The vaccine never (< 0.05%) causes hospitalization, so it never causes serious damage to the cardiovascular system.

GameOfFrowns 5y ago
> so it never causes serious damage to the cardiovascular system. That is quite the assertive statement in the light of all these public cases of vaccinated athletes keeling over. Is this flamebait?
- vegai_ 5y ago
  >Is this flamebait? Well, not intentionally, but people are a bit crazy these days apparently.
WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
- magicalist 5y ago
  The PCR test will not detect the vaccine, so all we have to accept here is hundreds of thousands of faked PCR results. Why stop there? Maybe no one has died of anything but the vaccine since the start of 2021? We can't possibly know since apparently the medical fraud is omnipresent.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    > We can't possibly know For that to happen, COVID would have to either kill nobody in 2020 so it could continue that in 2021, or abruptly stop killing people in 2021 (by what mechanism?) as soon as vaccines were rolled out anywhere (but not in places where they weren’t rolled out, how would it know?), and all vaccines would have to have the same effect despite working in different ways.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    According to Steve Kirsch the medical fraud is so omnipresent even the researchers he directly funded were guilty of it because their data stubbornly disagreed with him about the cures he wanted to find!

samwillis 5y ago

Useless anecdotal evidence from my wife’s hairdresser, she has just been diagnosed with Myocarditis after having a Moderna booster, she thinks it’s linked… Could be linked, probably not.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lima 5y ago
There's a known, well-established but very low risk of Myocarditis with mRNA vaccines. Like you say, a single data point is useless.
samwillis 5y ago
Just to clarify my point here (which has been deservedly down voted), I found it interesting that someone who is fully vaxed (as am I) and believes in the vaccines thinks they may have had a significant adverse effect. I think this shows how people are approaching it. They are excepting of the fact that they may have adverse reaction in incredibly rare cases but understand that the vaccine is needed. The possibility, albeit incredibly unlikely, of as adverse affect has been accepted by the public as ok. In her case she actually has some other health concerns that may well turn out to be the cause.

Alex3917 5y ago

> Do you know if the immune response from the vaccine also causes that damage or not? The vaccine appears to cause minor damage, but more likely from the spike protein than from the immune response. C.f. this article: https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-coronavirus-vaccines-may-cause-long-covid-symptoms https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-coronavir... "She says she has preliminary evidence that vaccination can lead to microclots, although in most cases they go unnoticed and quickly disappear—an effect she and a colleague saw in their own blood and that of eight other healthy volunteers, which they sampled after their vaccinations." The clotting issues would presumably come from the spike protein binding with your ACE2 receptors and downregulating them. Of course it's kind of moot, since empirically we know that getting the vaccine has a hugely positive expected value.

raxxorrax 5y ago
I think this should be researched further. There are countries that are more or less unvaccinated and can serve as a control group. Without that you simply cannot answer the question.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  You don’t need, and in fact lose validity, using entire countries as control groups
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Obviously, but you need people to be not vaccinated. But it still is the only way to sensibly differentiate effects of Covid and the vaccine itself if the spike protein causes damage. I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test. There is no alternative to this and it should have been done before any mandates came up in my opinion.
    - Alex3917 5y ago
      > I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test. There are already studies comparing the mortality risk of those who got the vaccines against those who didn't, among only people who didn't get COVID. If you're worried about the vaccines, just take them 8 weeks apart instead of 3, and/or take an ACE inhibitor first to up-regulate your ACE2 receptors.