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> You're misdefining "authoritarian" No, the economic sphere is strictly top-down authoritarian where workers is in a dependency situation wrt to their boss. T

> You're misdefining "authoritarian" No, the economic sphere is strictly top-down authoritarian where workers is in a dependency situation wrt to their boss. The pandemic has made that abundantly clear. > You're free to manage your own property however you wish. Only if you actually have property to begin with, which most don't by no fault of their own. And what a few do have, by no merit of their own.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
>>No, the economic sphere is strictly top-down authoritarian where workers is in a dependency situation wrt to their boss. It's a voluntarily assumed dependency. Your incoherent moral argument would suggest that something the worker wants - a job to be offered to them - is harming them, and that this offer that the worker chooses over other options - is an act of authoritarianism. Authoritarianism implies non-consensual interactions. People being forced by nature to work in order to feed themselves is not 'non-consensual' in any legal or social sense, and the people offering them jobs in this environment are not authoritarians as a result. A top-down hierarchical structure also does not define authoritarianism. What's authoritarian is the state preventing people from trading their labor for income, to enforce the incoherent moral principles of socialist ideology. >>Only if you actually have property to begin with, which most don't by no fault of their own. And what a few do have, by no merit of their own. That doesn't give you a right to rob others of their property.
- 8note 5y ago
  Property itself is voluntary. If you don't consent to that property as a concept, there is no theft or trespass if you use the same land the farmer does to grow your own food. It's not robbery, the property is an illusion. The only reason you can call it a right is that it's being forced upon us, and thus everything related to it is too. The job is part of an authoritarian labour division, and the property is the authoritarian part
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>Property itself is voluntary. If you don't consent to that property as a concept, there is no theft or trespass if you use the same land the farmer does to grow your own food. It's not robbery, the property is an illusion. You could say the same thing about a person's right to their own body. If you don't consent to their body being theirs, there is no rape or violence when you touch them without their consent. Bodily autonomy is an illusion according to this malevolent, bad faith argument. It's self-evident, from the perspective of any coherent moral framework, that people have a moral right to exclusive access to their own body, and the wealth they produce or acquire in voluntary trade, and that the people who disagree with this have no respect for others, or regard for the best interests of society at large. Just think how absurd it would be in the Fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, if the Grasshopper used your argument to demand the Ant forfeit the food he had painstakingly stored up for the winter, and the disastrous social consequences if this pathological moral framework were socially accepted.
    - cloudfifty 5y ago
      You can't compare an individuals rights with systemic rights and try to draw moral equivalency between those. That's just dishonest. An individuals right starts and ends with that individual. Private property rights however encompasses the entire system, and all the people within that system, and must therefore be evaluated completely differently, including wrt morals.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        You're incorrectly putting a person's right to their property, i.e. their right to make exclusive use of what they produce, into a different category from a person's right to make exclusive use of their body. Your socialist premise is an arbitrary dictinction to rationalize socialism.
        cloudfifty 5y ago
        > You're incorrectly putting a person's right to their property, i.e. their right to make exclusive use of what they produce, into a different category from a person's right to make exclusive use of their body. Yes of course I do? Because I just explained why they are different things, which you haven't responded to.
- cloudfifty 5y ago
  > It's a voluntarily assumed dependency. No, there's nothing voluntary about it. Why would anyone accept a coal mining job in the 19th century voluntary? > People being forced by nature to work in order to feed themselves So what? If that required Capitalist property relations we wouldn't exist now. Indirectly forcing someone give up their freedom to work instead of other social structures is a political choice, to the benefit of the propertied, not some commandment by god or whatever. > That doesn't give you a right to rob others of their property. It might? It's not up to the propertied class alone to decide what's a right and what's not. They're obviously looking to protect their privileged position like any nobility or monarch of old times.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>No, there's nothing voluntary about it. Why would anyone accept a coal mining job in the 19th century voluntary? If someone offers something, and the other person accepts it because they perceive it as being better than any other option they have available to them, then it's voluntary. No court of law, consisting of a jury of your peers, would agree that a contract entered into by a worker, because the worker needed the income to eat, is not voluntary, and that's why you could never get your political project implemented through the judicial process. >>So what? So your argumewnt is bogus. I'm explaining that the fact that people are forced to do difficult things to survive does not make the situation authoritarian. Much more is required for the situation to be classified as authoritarian. >>ndirectly forcing someone give up their freedom to work instead of other social structures is a political choice, to the benefit of the propertied, not some commandment by god or whatever. This is a blatant lie: no one is forcing any one to give up their freedom to work. This is just a baseless victimhood narrative and false accusation against millions of innocent people. >>It might? It's not up to the propertied class alone to decide what's a right and what's not. Well if you're incredibly narcissistic, then you justify robbing people.
    - cloudfifty 5y ago
      > then it's voluntary No, it's forced upon them by external circumstances. That's also in many cases setup and supported by the very persons exploiting them. Put people in a cage of poverty because you've decided and support that is should be like that then call is voluntary when they are force to give up their freedom is perverse. No one in their right mind would ever call that a voluntary choice. Sending your children to do life-threatening work in the factory is not a voluntary choice. It's a forced concession. That it wasn't illegal doesn't make it voluntary. > No court of law Laws is no objective guide to neither morality nor justice. That's proven by history. > I'm explaining that the fact that people are forced to do difficult things to survive does not make the situation authoritarian If course it is. You can't first create and support the conditions then absolve yourself from what you've created when from people are forced to sell their freedom to you to survive. > This is a blatant lie What's the lie? Not forced by violence, but forced by the system the propertied support and have a disproportional influence over. > Well if you're incredibly narcissistic, then you justify robbing people. Not really? Withholding necessities to gain power over peoples labour and make a profit is pretty pathologically sociopathic and abolishing that state of affairs is righteous, not robbery.

CryptoPunk 5y ago

>>No, the economic sphere is strictly top-down authoritarian where workers is in a dependency situation wrt to their boss. It's a voluntarily assumed dependency. Your incoherent moral argument would suggest that something the worker wants - a job to be offered to them - is harming them, and that this offer that the worker chooses over other options - is an act of authoritarianism. Authoritarianism implies non-consensual interactions. People being forced by nature to work in order to feed themselves is not 'non-consensual' in any legal or social sense, and the people offering them jobs in this environment are not authoritarians as a result. A top-down hierarchical structure also does not define authoritarianism. What's authoritarian is the state preventing people from trading their labor for income, to enforce the incoherent moral principles of socialist ideology. >>Only if you actually have property to begin with, which most don't by no fault of their own. And what a few do have, by no merit of their own. That doesn't give you a right to rob others of their property.

8note 5y ago
Property itself is voluntary. If you don't consent to that property as a concept, there is no theft or trespass if you use the same land the farmer does to grow your own food. It's not robbery, the property is an illusion. The only reason you can call it a right is that it's being forced upon us, and thus everything related to it is too. The job is part of an authoritarian labour division, and the property is the authoritarian part
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>Property itself is voluntary. If you don't consent to that property as a concept, there is no theft or trespass if you use the same land the farmer does to grow your own food. It's not robbery, the property is an illusion. You could say the same thing about a person's right to their own body. If you don't consent to their body being theirs, there is no rape or violence when you touch them without their consent. Bodily autonomy is an illusion according to this malevolent, bad faith argument. It's self-evident, from the perspective of any coherent moral framework, that people have a moral right to exclusive access to their own body, and the wealth they produce or acquire in voluntary trade, and that the people who disagree with this have no respect for others, or regard for the best interests of society at large. Just think how absurd it would be in the Fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, if the Grasshopper used your argument to demand the Ant forfeit the food he had painstakingly stored up for the winter, and the disastrous social consequences if this pathological moral framework were socially accepted.
  - cloudfifty 5y ago
    You can't compare an individuals rights with systemic rights and try to draw moral equivalency between those. That's just dishonest. An individuals right starts and ends with that individual. Private property rights however encompasses the entire system, and all the people within that system, and must therefore be evaluated completely differently, including wrt morals.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      You're incorrectly putting a person's right to their property, i.e. their right to make exclusive use of what they produce, into a different category from a person's right to make exclusive use of their body. Your socialist premise is an arbitrary dictinction to rationalize socialism.
      - cloudfifty 5y ago
        > You're incorrectly putting a person's right to their property, i.e. their right to make exclusive use of what they produce, into a different category from a person's right to make exclusive use of their body. Yes of course I do? Because I just explained why they are different things, which you haven't responded to.
cloudfifty 5y ago
> It's a voluntarily assumed dependency. No, there's nothing voluntary about it. Why would anyone accept a coal mining job in the 19th century voluntary? > People being forced by nature to work in order to feed themselves So what? If that required Capitalist property relations we wouldn't exist now. Indirectly forcing someone give up their freedom to work instead of other social structures is a political choice, to the benefit of the propertied, not some commandment by god or whatever. > That doesn't give you a right to rob others of their property. It might? It's not up to the propertied class alone to decide what's a right and what's not. They're obviously looking to protect their privileged position like any nobility or monarch of old times.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>No, there's nothing voluntary about it. Why would anyone accept a coal mining job in the 19th century voluntary? If someone offers something, and the other person accepts it because they perceive it as being better than any other option they have available to them, then it's voluntary. No court of law, consisting of a jury of your peers, would agree that a contract entered into by a worker, because the worker needed the income to eat, is not voluntary, and that's why you could never get your political project implemented through the judicial process. >>So what? So your argumewnt is bogus. I'm explaining that the fact that people are forced to do difficult things to survive does not make the situation authoritarian. Much more is required for the situation to be classified as authoritarian. >>ndirectly forcing someone give up their freedom to work instead of other social structures is a political choice, to the benefit of the propertied, not some commandment by god or whatever. This is a blatant lie: no one is forcing any one to give up their freedom to work. This is just a baseless victimhood narrative and false accusation against millions of innocent people. >>It might? It's not up to the propertied class alone to decide what's a right and what's not. Well if you're incredibly narcissistic, then you justify robbing people.
  - cloudfifty 5y ago
    > then it's voluntary No, it's forced upon them by external circumstances. That's also in many cases setup and supported by the very persons exploiting them. Put people in a cage of poverty because you've decided and support that is should be like that then call is voluntary when they are force to give up their freedom is perverse. No one in their right mind would ever call that a voluntary choice. Sending your children to do life-threatening work in the factory is not a voluntary choice. It's a forced concession. That it wasn't illegal doesn't make it voluntary. > No court of law Laws is no objective guide to neither morality nor justice. That's proven by history. > I'm explaining that the fact that people are forced to do difficult things to survive does not make the situation authoritarian If course it is. You can't first create and support the conditions then absolve yourself from what you've created when from people are forced to sell their freedom to you to survive. > This is a blatant lie What's the lie? Not forced by violence, but forced by the system the propertied support and have a disproportional influence over. > Well if you're incredibly narcissistic, then you justify robbing people. Not really? Withholding necessities to gain power over peoples labour and make a profit is pretty pathologically sociopathic and abolishing that state of affairs is righteous, not robbery.