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Interestingly Venezuela is listed as democratic country in this article. I suspect there are a lot of Venezuela people who would disagree with such statement.

goodcanadian 5y ago
I would argue that Venezuela is not very democratic, now, but Hugo Chavez was originally elected democratically. I suspect this is referring to actions to undermine his government at the time.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  Pretty much like Putin or Lukashenka. Both were elected democratically in the first run. The problem is, they stayed in power long after their democratic mandate expired.
  - selivanovp 5y ago
    Putin's mandate is as solid as ever. You may hate him, but he's still overwhelmingly popular politician in Russia.
    - oytis 5y ago
      That's not how democracy works. Kim Jong-un is extremely popular in North Korea either I guess. Far more popular than Biden is in the US in any case.
    - aa-jv 5y ago
      The people always get the governments they deserve. Putin hasn't been removed - democratically or by violent coup - simply because he is popular with the people who have chosen to be ruled by him. This doesn't align with the two minutes hate narrative that the West want to use in order to justify its direct interference in Russian democracy - in a sovereign country - so a lot of noise is made to occlude this fact and justify the usurpation of Russian politics.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      Very easy to be popular when you control the media and can just have the opposition poisoned. Stalin was (and to some people still is!) overwhelmingly popular.
      - pydry 5y ago
        Whereas the US has virtually all media under the thumb of 15 billionaire oligarchs and Julian Assange rotting in prison.
        aa-jv 5y ago
        Its amazing to me that Americans are so eager to point out Russia's poisoning of dissenters, yet choose to clearly ignore the chemical lobotomy that has been dished out to Assange while he is in one of the Wests' most heinous of all torture chambers.
        ben_w 5y ago
        HM Prison Belmarsh? I’m no fan of the U.K. government, especially because they didn’t even bother to tell Sweden he had been removed from the embassy even though Sweden’s existing case was why he was in there in the first place, but Belmarsh is neither a torture chamber nor even remotely comparable to e.g. Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
        pydry 5y ago
        UN Special Rapporteur on torture Nils Melzer - is he a liar, do you think?
        ben_w 5y ago
        Why would you think I think that? Nils Melzer has severely criticised the USA for Gitmo, and also “cautiously” welcomed a British court’s refusal to expedite assigned the USA specifically on the grounds that the USA is likely to be much worse. While Nils Melzer is critical of Assange’s treatment by U.K. authorities, the behaviour he criticised also includes the fact they were not willing to ignore him if he left his self imposed imprisonments in the embassy. Even with the most hostile interpretation I can manage (and I really don’t have a reason to like the U.K. government even before Johnson started doing Nixon impressions), Belmarsh prison, where Assange is currently being detained, is not even close to being on the list of the “Wests' most heinous of all torture chambers”.
    - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
      - amaccuish 5y ago
        I lived there and will happily back their comment up. Have you? "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like."
        sam_lowry_ 5y ago
        I am old enough to have lived in USSR. Can't really transpose my youth experience to contemporary Russia, though.
      - mschuster91 5y ago
        No need to accuse people of being shills. Putin is legitimately popular inside of Russia, for a multitude of reasons: - there's no challenger in sight (which obviously is caused to a large part by any potential candidate being suppressed once they are too successful, e.g. Navalny) - Russians - particularly those who have witnessed the events directly prior, during and after the fall of the USSR - value stability over revolutionary changes or unrest. Current Russia may not provide the level of wealth as the US or Europe, but the difference is in the eyes of many not worth the risk of repeating recent history. See also [1]. - Putin, similarly to many other Eastern European strongmen like Orban, is an expert at timing government handouts to important voter groups such as pensioners [2] - Unlike mainland Europe or the US, there's not much of a tradition of democracy in Russia. First, you had the Tsarist monarchy, then a couple of years of civil war, then the decades of the USSR dictatorship, then a couple of years of a bit of democracy, and then at the end of 1999 Putin got into power and slowly destroyed the progress of the last eight years before. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lloyd-putin-commentary-idUSKBN1GV25D https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lloyd-putin-commentary-id... [2]: https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/putin-butters-up-russian-pensioners-with-cash-gifts-ahead-of-polls https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/putin-butters-up-rus...
        sam_lowry_ 5y ago
quetzthecoatl 5y ago
The same would be true for US as well - or any country based on how people feel about the party/person in power.
VictorPath 5y ago
The CIA was involved in the failed 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela when the army took over and dissolved the parliament, temporarily. In 2018 the CIA was again planning a coup, or disruption at least, revolving around the planned December 2018 elections. The Venezuelans got wind of this and bumped the elections up a few months. The CIA was caught flat footed somewhat, and the December plans went into effect early. The idea floated that the 2018 elections were rigged doesn't really fly. Even Trump didn't like the puppet the US was trying to push as the real head of Venezuela, Guaido. He called him the Beto O'Rourke of Venezuela.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  Venezuelan here. > The CIA was involved in the failed 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela when the army took over and dissolved the parliament, temporarily. Yes, but half of the country was out in the streets asking for his resignation at the same time, cannot deny that. > The idea floated that the 2018 elections were rigged doesn't really fly. Americans like to talk about voter oppression, what about armed guns rolling up to your voting center, firing guns into the air to scare voters away because they were losing or something. I personally lived through that, cannot tell me it's a CIA psyop. The VAST majority of people here are against the government, even people who were previously very pro-government, since at least 5 years ago. Yet they somehow won the last couple elections... no one really believes those results.

goodcanadian 5y ago

I would argue that Venezuela is not very democratic, now, but Hugo Chavez was originally elected democratically. I suspect this is referring to actions to undermine his government at the time.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
Pretty much like Putin or Lukashenka. Both were elected democratically in the first run. The problem is, they stayed in power long after their democratic mandate expired.
- selivanovp 5y ago
  Putin's mandate is as solid as ever. You may hate him, but he's still overwhelmingly popular politician in Russia.
  - oytis 5y ago
    That's not how democracy works. Kim Jong-un is extremely popular in North Korea either I guess. Far more popular than Biden is in the US in any case.
  - aa-jv 5y ago
    The people always get the governments they deserve. Putin hasn't been removed - democratically or by violent coup - simply because he is popular with the people who have chosen to be ruled by him. This doesn't align with the two minutes hate narrative that the West want to use in order to justify its direct interference in Russian democracy - in a sovereign country - so a lot of noise is made to occlude this fact and justify the usurpation of Russian politics.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Very easy to be popular when you control the media and can just have the opposition poisoned. Stalin was (and to some people still is!) overwhelmingly popular.
    - pydry 5y ago
      Whereas the US has virtually all media under the thumb of 15 billionaire oligarchs and Julian Assange rotting in prison.
      - aa-jv 5y ago
        Its amazing to me that Americans are so eager to point out Russia's poisoning of dissenters, yet choose to clearly ignore the chemical lobotomy that has been dished out to Assange while he is in one of the Wests' most heinous of all torture chambers.
        ben_w 5y ago
        HM Prison Belmarsh? I’m no fan of the U.K. government, especially because they didn’t even bother to tell Sweden he had been removed from the embassy even though Sweden’s existing case was why he was in there in the first place, but Belmarsh is neither a torture chamber nor even remotely comparable to e.g. Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
        pydry 5y ago
        UN Special Rapporteur on torture Nils Melzer - is he a liar, do you think?
        ben_w 5y ago
        Why would you think I think that? Nils Melzer has severely criticised the USA for Gitmo, and also “cautiously” welcomed a British court’s refusal to expedite assigned the USA specifically on the grounds that the USA is likely to be much worse. While Nils Melzer is critical of Assange’s treatment by U.K. authorities, the behaviour he criticised also includes the fact they were not willing to ignore him if he left his self imposed imprisonments in the embassy. Even with the most hostile interpretation I can manage (and I really don’t have a reason to like the U.K. government even before Johnson started doing Nixon impressions), Belmarsh prison, where Assange is currently being detained, is not even close to being on the list of the “Wests' most heinous of all torture chambers”.
  - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
    - amaccuish 5y ago
      I lived there and will happily back their comment up. Have you? "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like."
      - sam_lowry_ 5y ago
        I am old enough to have lived in USSR. Can't really transpose my youth experience to contemporary Russia, though.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      No need to accuse people of being shills. Putin is legitimately popular inside of Russia, for a multitude of reasons: - there's no challenger in sight (which obviously is caused to a large part by any potential candidate being suppressed once they are too successful, e.g. Navalny) - Russians - particularly those who have witnessed the events directly prior, during and after the fall of the USSR - value stability over revolutionary changes or unrest. Current Russia may not provide the level of wealth as the US or Europe, but the difference is in the eyes of many not worth the risk of repeating recent history. See also [1]. - Putin, similarly to many other Eastern European strongmen like Orban, is an expert at timing government handouts to important voter groups such as pensioners [2] - Unlike mainland Europe or the US, there's not much of a tradition of democracy in Russia. First, you had the Tsarist monarchy, then a couple of years of civil war, then the decades of the USSR dictatorship, then a couple of years of a bit of democracy, and then at the end of 1999 Putin got into power and slowly destroyed the progress of the last eight years before. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lloyd-putin-commentary-idUSKBN1GV25D https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lloyd-putin-commentary-id... [2]: https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/putin-butters-up-russian-pensioners-with-cash-gifts-ahead-of-polls https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/putin-butters-up-rus...
      - sam_lowry_ 5y ago

quetzthecoatl 5y ago

The same would be true for US as well - or any country based on how people feel about the party/person in power.

VictorPath 5y ago

The CIA was involved in the failed 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela when the army took over and dissolved the parliament, temporarily. In 2018 the CIA was again planning a coup, or disruption at least, revolving around the planned December 2018 elections. The Venezuelans got wind of this and bumped the elections up a few months. The CIA was caught flat footed somewhat, and the December plans went into effect early. The idea floated that the 2018 elections were rigged doesn't really fly. Even Trump didn't like the puppet the US was trying to push as the real head of Venezuela, Guaido. He called him the Beto O'Rourke of Venezuela.

danlugo92 5y ago
Venezuelan here. > The CIA was involved in the failed 2002 coup attempt in Venezuela when the army took over and dissolved the parliament, temporarily. Yes, but half of the country was out in the streets asking for his resignation at the same time, cannot deny that. > The idea floated that the 2018 elections were rigged doesn't really fly. Americans like to talk about voter oppression, what about armed guns rolling up to your voting center, firing guns into the air to scare voters away because they were losing or something. I personally lived through that, cannot tell me it's a CIA psyop. The VAST majority of people here are against the government, even people who were previously very pro-government, since at least 5 years ago. Yet they somehow won the last couple elections... no one really believes those results.