5 ms·

This should be compared to death rates from COVID.

by jabej 5y ago

mostertoaster 5y ago
How come? There is a higher risk to dying from a covid infection (at least with delta) than from the vaccine as far as we can see in the short term. But there is still a risk from the vaccine. If there was a train hurtling down the tracks about to kill five people many think they’d be able to push the switch to make it only kill one different person, yet I wouldn’t be able to do even that let alone the more intense situations from that scenario. Thinking of people as numbers is what allows for someone to think it is ok to coerce people into getting vaccines.
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  A person susceptible to heart conditions from the vaccine would probably also be susceptible to the same (or worse) from the disease itself. Your hapless groups of people on the tracks, the five and the one, aren't independent. It may well be flipping the switch only saves lives.
  - orangebeet 5y ago
    I am absolutely pro vaccine despite my heart problems, but this kind of argumentation basically means that regardless of how bad the vaccine is, it gets away free because "covid would probably be worse".
    - gregoryl 5y ago
      Covid is dramatically, consistently and provably worse. Its not even in the same ballpark.
      - adamrezich 5y ago
        really? I know many people who "got omicron" shortly after Christmas... by which I mean, they self-tested daily and eventually the test came up positive, with symptoms ranging from literally nonexistent to that of the mildest of colds—a far cry from my mom's ten-day absolute misery (and very real fear for her life given her immunosuppressed state) back in early 2020 that I personally witnessed & took care of her during. if that's what we're dealing with now, I don't see any reason why someone like myself who hasn't taken any of these vaccines or boosters or whatever to start doing so now. what part of my own personal risk assessment here is misguided?
        pcwalton 5y ago
        Because the unvaccinated death rate from COVID is 13x higher than the vaccinated death rate in the US. It's simple. Get vaccinated.
        adamrezich 5y ago
        what compels you to phrase it as a command rather than a suggestion or recommendation? given that you lack authority over me, I don't appreciate it.
        megous 5y ago
        How this does help anyone in particular to decide for themselves, unless you include some other factors like pre-existing conditions, sex, or age to the comparison? People are not averages of the whole population. We would not need doctors if medical advice was this simple.
      - spurgu 5y ago
        Does not apply to kids, for example. Specifically when it comes to myocarditis (which is even an issue for <40 apparently): https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myocarditis-stratified https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myoca...
        rsfern 5y ago
        The preprint discussed in that post specifically calls out that there weren’t enough myocarditis events in the 13-17 age group to reliably estimate the relative risk, so I don’t see where that conclusion is coming from Also, note the higher relative risk only applies to the full moderna dose https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
        spurgu 5y ago
        There have been similar reports from Ontario and some country I can't recall at the moment.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Similar reports of what? I’m not saying that I don’t think myocarditis is a risk factor for kids and teens, just that this paper isn’t giving a quantitative assessment of its relative risk vs Covid. If you have seen research that does provide quantitative insight, I would be interested to read it; I have two kids under 5 and I’m still evaluating things.
        spurgu 5y ago
        > Similar reports of what? Of myocarditis in kids (especially boys). This is the pre-print I was thinking of: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v... I have a pre-teen daughter myself and while she's not directly in a "risk-group" (like boys are) I wouldn't feel comfortable shoving jabs and boosters after boosters into her, when the benefits are dubious. This is why many countries are holding off on vaccinating kids still, even though some countries like the US seem to be hellbent on vaccinating 100% at any cost. Edit: The above study has risks broken up by which vaccines were administered as 1st/2nd (page 12). Interestingly Moderna+Pfizer seems to have no(!?) risk, whereas myocarditis is very high among Pfizer+Moderna. Not sure what to make of it. Edit2: Keep in mind we haven't vaccinated <12 year olds extensively yet, but the data on young children is already worrisome (to the point where risks of myocarditis seem to outweigh risks of Covid). Edit3: I'm myself double-jabbed, so not an antivaxxer per se, even though I'm classified as one as per "modern definition".
    - gitgrump 5y ago
      That's kind of how relative risk works. I mean, no COVID would be nice, but we left that world behind two years ago. What do you mean "get away free" anyway? There's no morality here. The vaccine didn't "do" anything wrong. It is either efficacious or it isn't, and the side effects are either worth it or they aren't. From what we can tell, the risk of heart problems from the vaccine is so much lower than from COVID. What more would you like people to do?
- pcwalton 5y ago
  The trolley problem analogy breaks down when you consider that Covid is an infectious disease. Getting vaccinated doesn't just protect you; it protects everyone else you might have spread the disease to.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    The effectiveness against infection is limited, and omicron mainly spreads in vaccinated populations in Denmark, Island and the UK
    - pcwalton 5y ago
      Both technically true statements (though I think you mean Iceland), but presented in a completely misleading way. Yes, breakthrough infections exist and nothing is 100%; you should still get the vaccine, obviously. Yes, when the population is highly vaccinated, a lot of infections will be in the vaccinated; that's just how denominators work.
      - rastignack 5y ago
        pcwalton 5y ago
        This is antivax misinformation.
        rastignack 5y ago
        I’m rather pro vaccination and read those numbers first hand, thanks.
- gregoryl 5y ago
  I'll bite. Why is it not ok to coerce people into getting vaccines? Is it specifically the covid vaccine you object to, or all vaccines?
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    Medical advice should be provided by doctors, not politicians, activists, or bureacrats. Doctors have specific ethical training and guidelines by which they're qualified to make judgments about safety and relative risks for individuals. Consider that polio vaccination was never framed and exploited by political parties playing despicable red vs blue games with the public. The results, driven by information campaigns devoid of partisan politics, were a nearly universal state of vaccination, driving the disease more or less extinct. Trust in doctors and medical institutions was high and relatively untrammeled by partisan games. The second that coronavirus vaccination became a political shibboleth for team blue, the current state of vaccine resistance became inevitable. Both parties are responsible for a lot of unnecessary death and suffering because of their willingness to never let a good crisis go to waste. Throw in the general decline and corruption of institutions, lack of trust in public health agencies and even doctors in general, and you've got a mess of hyperpartisan unvaccinated conservative folks being shrieked at by the clueless but vaccinated team blue, and nobody credible or trusted able to bring the situation back to something resembling sanity.
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    Well what if there is a side effect that kills them? What if that person already got covid and was barely affected by it? Forcing them to get the vaccine is crazy, especially when it doesn’t behave how the other vaccines do, and vaccinated people are both getting it and spreading it, albeit with far less severe symptoms than the unvaccinated person on average. I think vaccines are amazing, these new covid ones, look to be reducing the symptoms of covid. The idea of forcing it on folks when even vaccinated people are spreading it is absurd.
    - thrashh 5y ago
      I wouldn’t be surprised if vaccinated people go out more because they feel safer. I went on a cross-US road trip right after I got my vaccine and now I’ve been to 4 different countries. I wouldn’t have done any of that if I wasn’t vaccinated.
jjeaff 5y ago
Why would you compare heart complications to deaths? Compare heart complications to heart complications. They are higher in COVID than the vaccine for any age group.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yucky 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

This should be compared to death rates from COVID.

by jabej 5y ago

This should be compared to death rates from COVID.

How come? There is a higher risk to dying from a covid infection (at least with delta) than from the vaccine as far as we can see in the short term. But there is still a risk from the vaccine. If there was a train hurtling down the tracks about to kill five people many think they’d be able to push the switch to make it only kill one different person, yet I wouldn’t be able to do even that let alone the more intense situations from that scenario. Thinking of people as numbers is what allows for someone to think it is ok to coerce people into getting vaccines.

tomjakubowski 5y ago
A person susceptible to heart conditions from the vaccine would probably also be susceptible to the same (or worse) from the disease itself. Your hapless groups of people on the tracks, the five and the one, aren't independent. It may well be flipping the switch only saves lives.
- orangebeet 5y ago
  I am absolutely pro vaccine despite my heart problems, but this kind of argumentation basically means that regardless of how bad the vaccine is, it gets away free because "covid would probably be worse".
  - gregoryl 5y ago
    Covid is dramatically, consistently and provably worse. Its not even in the same ballpark.
    - adamrezich 5y ago
      really? I know many people who "got omicron" shortly after Christmas... by which I mean, they self-tested daily and eventually the test came up positive, with symptoms ranging from literally nonexistent to that of the mildest of colds—a far cry from my mom's ten-day absolute misery (and very real fear for her life given her immunosuppressed state) back in early 2020 that I personally witnessed & took care of her during. if that's what we're dealing with now, I don't see any reason why someone like myself who hasn't taken any of these vaccines or boosters or whatever to start doing so now. what part of my own personal risk assessment here is misguided?
      - pcwalton 5y ago
        Because the unvaccinated death rate from COVID is 13x higher than the vaccinated death rate in the US. It's simple. Get vaccinated.
        adamrezich 5y ago
        what compels you to phrase it as a command rather than a suggestion or recommendation? given that you lack authority over me, I don't appreciate it.
        megous 5y ago
        How this does help anyone in particular to decide for themselves, unless you include some other factors like pre-existing conditions, sex, or age to the comparison? People are not averages of the whole population. We would not need doctors if medical advice was this simple.
    - spurgu 5y ago
      Does not apply to kids, for example. Specifically when it comes to myocarditis (which is even an issue for <40 apparently): https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myocarditis-stratified https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myoca...
      - rsfern 5y ago
        The preprint discussed in that post specifically calls out that there weren’t enough myocarditis events in the 13-17 age group to reliably estimate the relative risk, so I don’t see where that conclusion is coming from Also, note the higher relative risk only applies to the full moderna dose https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
        spurgu 5y ago
        There have been similar reports from Ontario and some country I can't recall at the moment.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Similar reports of what? I’m not saying that I don’t think myocarditis is a risk factor for kids and teens, just that this paper isn’t giving a quantitative assessment of its relative risk vs Covid. If you have seen research that does provide quantitative insight, I would be interested to read it; I have two kids under 5 and I’m still evaluating things.
        spurgu 5y ago
        > Similar reports of what? Of myocarditis in kids (especially boys). This is the pre-print I was thinking of: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v... I have a pre-teen daughter myself and while she's not directly in a "risk-group" (like boys are) I wouldn't feel comfortable shoving jabs and boosters after boosters into her, when the benefits are dubious. This is why many countries are holding off on vaccinating kids still, even though some countries like the US seem to be hellbent on vaccinating 100% at any cost. Edit: The above study has risks broken up by which vaccines were administered as 1st/2nd (page 12). Interestingly Moderna+Pfizer seems to have no(!?) risk, whereas myocarditis is very high among Pfizer+Moderna. Not sure what to make of it. Edit2: Keep in mind we haven't vaccinated <12 year olds extensively yet, but the data on young children is already worrisome (to the point where risks of myocarditis seem to outweigh risks of Covid). Edit3: I'm myself double-jabbed, so not an antivaxxer per se, even though I'm classified as one as per "modern definition".
  - gitgrump 5y ago
    That's kind of how relative risk works. I mean, no COVID would be nice, but we left that world behind two years ago. What do you mean "get away free" anyway? There's no morality here. The vaccine didn't "do" anything wrong. It is either efficacious or it isn't, and the side effects are either worth it or they aren't. From what we can tell, the risk of heart problems from the vaccine is so much lower than from COVID. What more would you like people to do?
pcwalton 5y ago
The trolley problem analogy breaks down when you consider that Covid is an infectious disease. Getting vaccinated doesn't just protect you; it protects everyone else you might have spread the disease to.
- rastignack 5y ago
  The effectiveness against infection is limited, and omicron mainly spreads in vaccinated populations in Denmark, Island and the UK
  - pcwalton 5y ago
    Both technically true statements (though I think you mean Iceland), but presented in a completely misleading way. Yes, breakthrough infections exist and nothing is 100%; you should still get the vaccine, obviously. Yes, when the population is highly vaccinated, a lot of infections will be in the vaccinated; that's just how denominators work.
    - rastignack 5y ago
      - pcwalton 5y ago
        This is antivax misinformation.
        rastignack 5y ago
        I’m rather pro vaccination and read those numbers first hand, thanks.
gregoryl 5y ago
I'll bite. Why is it not ok to coerce people into getting vaccines? Is it specifically the covid vaccine you object to, or all vaccines?
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  Medical advice should be provided by doctors, not politicians, activists, or bureacrats. Doctors have specific ethical training and guidelines by which they're qualified to make judgments about safety and relative risks for individuals. Consider that polio vaccination was never framed and exploited by political parties playing despicable red vs blue games with the public. The results, driven by information campaigns devoid of partisan politics, were a nearly universal state of vaccination, driving the disease more or less extinct. Trust in doctors and medical institutions was high and relatively untrammeled by partisan games. The second that coronavirus vaccination became a political shibboleth for team blue, the current state of vaccine resistance became inevitable. Both parties are responsible for a lot of unnecessary death and suffering because of their willingness to never let a good crisis go to waste. Throw in the general decline and corruption of institutions, lack of trust in public health agencies and even doctors in general, and you've got a mess of hyperpartisan unvaccinated conservative folks being shrieked at by the clueless but vaccinated team blue, and nobody credible or trusted able to bring the situation back to something resembling sanity.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  Well what if there is a side effect that kills them? What if that person already got covid and was barely affected by it? Forcing them to get the vaccine is crazy, especially when it doesn’t behave how the other vaccines do, and vaccinated people are both getting it and spreading it, albeit with far less severe symptoms than the unvaccinated person on average. I think vaccines are amazing, these new covid ones, look to be reducing the symptoms of covid. The idea of forcing it on folks when even vaccinated people are spreading it is absurd.
  - thrashh 5y ago
    I wouldn’t be surprised if vaccinated people go out more because they feel safer. I went on a cross-US road trip right after I got my vaccine and now I’ve been to 4 different countries. I wouldn’t have done any of that if I wasn’t vaccinated.

jjeaff 5y ago

Why would you compare heart complications to deaths? Compare heart complications to heart complications. They are higher in COVID than the vaccine for any age group.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yucky 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]