7 ms·

My great hope in these cold war-esque times of tension between China, Russia, and the US is that the field of battle becomes competition in Great Achievements f

My great hope in these cold war-esque times of tension between China, Russia, and the US is that the field of battle becomes competition in Great Achievements for science, engineering, and space exploration. Permanent human-staffed moonbases are a good goal to strive towards.

echelon 5y ago
And just like a cold war, China is making a strategic move. The lunar south pole seems to be prime real estate. One of two always lit / always dark positions, and it has more water ice and craters than the north pole. Definitely the better of the two spots. Unless they're willing to share, they're shafting the rest of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_south_pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_south_pole
- dirtyid 5y ago
  It'll be useful leverage to get 7 south pole claimants, and 8 arctic states to share land / transit rights. Interesting to speculate if moon claims will intermingle with that on earth.
- camdat 5y ago
  Source on them making a "strategic move"? I see that they completed a landing a couple years ago, but India made the same attempt.
  - bagels 5y ago
    Nothing we do on the moon in the near term will require that it be to the exclusion of other countries. Landing a rover, or creating a moon base of a few hundred square meters still leaves a lot more moon for others.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Nothing except human nature ... see the current controversies in the South China Sea. States are very territorial. There are emotional reasons for it, but also the exclusive claim for natural resources. If water is found in mineable concentrations in only a few spots of the Moon, I bet there will be a serious conflict over those spots. It is literally a matter of survival for the future colonists.
  - echelon 5y ago
    I had recently read the coverage on Slashdot [1], which makes mention of territorial claims. China and Russia oppose the US' claims. [1] https://science.slashdot.org/story/22/01/01/042219/china-speeds-up-moon-base-plan-in-space-race-against-america https://science.slashdot.org/story/22/01/01/042219/china-spe...
garmaine 5y ago
Did you live during the Cold War? I struggle to understand why someone would want to live under that constant existential threat of nuclear annihilation.
- rch 5y ago
  My father worked on Safeguard. It's unfortunate to think that the last several decades of relative calm might have been temporary.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Did you live during the Cold War? I struggle to understand why someone would want to live under that constant existential threat of nuclear annihilation. Ummm, we still live under that constant existential threat.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  He didn't say he wants it. I think he means that times of renewed rivalry and tension are coming whether we want it or not, and he hopes some good can come from it.
- mlyle 5y ago
  I don't think he's saying "I hope a cold war brews so we can get better space exploration!!" I think he's saying-- well, at least if geopolitical tensions get worse, maybe it will also at least improve space exploration.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  Both Russia and the US still have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out much of humanity. All that changed is that we don't live under is the constant reminder of that existential threat.
indigochill 5y ago
Agreed on the hope that the new cold war spurs more scientific achievements (just hopefully fewer Manhattan Projects). However, I don't grok the point of human-staffed moonbases. I'm just a casual layman, but asteroid mining's the only thing I know of with a clear ROI in space. Or is the idea a moonbase would be like the ISS/Antarctica, an international scientific outpost?
- ghostcluster 5y ago
  Staffing humans on the moon requires efficiencies and innovation in rocket launches, landing, inhospitable settlement, and transport of goods and people between the Earth's surface and the moon. It is a good stepping stone towards further exploration farther out.
- chii 5y ago
  > but asteroid mining's the only thing I know of with a clear ROI in space I dont think asteroid mining at current transportation costs is a clear ROI - the same amount of resources could be used to mine the earth for a lot more. I see ROI in micro-gravity manufacturing - stuff that is impossible to do in gravity could be the future! Things like nano particles that would not be possible to create under earth gravity, fine structures that could collapse easily could be sustained in space for example. Also, a 2nd human habitat (moon or otherwise) as a backup isn't a bad idea, even if it doesn't generate an economic return for a while. We are one asteroid impact away from extinction!
  - mym1990 5y ago
    I’m not an expert in any of the following, but a couple reasons might be: 1) Living on multiple bodies would do wonders for the imagination and further space exploration. 2) reduced gravity launches for spacecraft to places other than earth 3) a test environment for developing technologies in a completely different space. The ISS serves this somewhat, but it seems like the scalability is very limited, especially manufacturing.
  - bserge 5y ago

echelon 5y ago

And just like a cold war, China is making a strategic move. The lunar south pole seems to be prime real estate. One of two always lit / always dark positions, and it has more water ice and craters than the north pole. Definitely the better of the two spots. Unless they're willing to share, they're shafting the rest of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_south_pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_south_pole

dirtyid 5y ago
It'll be useful leverage to get 7 south pole claimants, and 8 arctic states to share land / transit rights. Interesting to speculate if moon claims will intermingle with that on earth.
camdat 5y ago
Source on them making a "strategic move"? I see that they completed a landing a couple years ago, but India made the same attempt.
- bagels 5y ago
  Nothing we do on the moon in the near term will require that it be to the exclusion of other countries. Landing a rover, or creating a moon base of a few hundred square meters still leaves a lot more moon for others.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Nothing except human nature ... see the current controversies in the South China Sea. States are very territorial. There are emotional reasons for it, but also the exclusive claim for natural resources. If water is found in mineable concentrations in only a few spots of the Moon, I bet there will be a serious conflict over those spots. It is literally a matter of survival for the future colonists.
- echelon 5y ago
  I had recently read the coverage on Slashdot [1], which makes mention of territorial claims. China and Russia oppose the US' claims. [1] https://science.slashdot.org/story/22/01/01/042219/china-speeds-up-moon-base-plan-in-space-race-against-america https://science.slashdot.org/story/22/01/01/042219/china-spe...

garmaine 5y ago

Did you live during the Cold War? I struggle to understand why someone would want to live under that constant existential threat of nuclear annihilation.

rch 5y ago
My father worked on Safeguard. It's unfortunate to think that the last several decades of relative calm might have been temporary.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Did you live during the Cold War? I struggle to understand why someone would want to live under that constant existential threat of nuclear annihilation. Ummm, we still live under that constant existential threat.
Buttons840 5y ago
He didn't say he wants it. I think he means that times of renewed rivalry and tension are coming whether we want it or not, and he hopes some good can come from it.
mlyle 5y ago
I don't think he's saying "I hope a cold war brews so we can get better space exploration!!" I think he's saying-- well, at least if geopolitical tensions get worse, maybe it will also at least improve space exploration.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwawaygh 5y ago
Both Russia and the US still have enough nuclear weapons to wipe out much of humanity. All that changed is that we don't live under is the constant reminder of that existential threat.

indigochill 5y ago

Agreed on the hope that the new cold war spurs more scientific achievements (just hopefully fewer Manhattan Projects). However, I don't grok the point of human-staffed moonbases. I'm just a casual layman, but asteroid mining's the only thing I know of with a clear ROI in space. Or is the idea a moonbase would be like the ISS/Antarctica, an international scientific outpost?

ghostcluster 5y ago
Staffing humans on the moon requires efficiencies and innovation in rocket launches, landing, inhospitable settlement, and transport of goods and people between the Earth's surface and the moon. It is a good stepping stone towards further exploration farther out.
chii 5y ago
> but asteroid mining's the only thing I know of with a clear ROI in space I dont think asteroid mining at current transportation costs is a clear ROI - the same amount of resources could be used to mine the earth for a lot more. I see ROI in micro-gravity manufacturing - stuff that is impossible to do in gravity could be the future! Things like nano particles that would not be possible to create under earth gravity, fine structures that could collapse easily could be sustained in space for example. Also, a 2nd human habitat (moon or otherwise) as a backup isn't a bad idea, even if it doesn't generate an economic return for a while. We are one asteroid impact away from extinction!
- mym1990 5y ago
  I’m not an expert in any of the following, but a couple reasons might be: 1) Living on multiple bodies would do wonders for the imagination and further space exploration. 2) reduced gravity launches for spacecraft to places other than earth 3) a test environment for developing technologies in a completely different space. The ISS serves this somewhat, but it seems like the scalability is very limited, especially manufacturing.
- bserge 5y ago