15 ms·

Can Matt Mullenweg save the internet?

67 points by decrypt 5y ago

ssl232 5y ago
> “I would be very, very interested in Mozilla,” Mullenweg said. Nice. I hope if Mozilla is ever in jeopardy of losing its independence, Mullenweg can scrap together whatever it will cost to buy and fix them. Seems like the right person to look after them.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Perhaps it's overly paranoid of me, but I'm not sure that Mozilla being purchased by a firm with significant VC investment is a good thing for its independence.
a5aAqU 5y ago
Start by denouncing AMP.[1] WordPress has been a major supporter. [1] https://wptavern.com/amp-has-irreparably-damaged-publishers-trust-in-google-led-initiatives https://wptavern.com/amp-has-irreparably-damaged-publishers-...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yepthatsreality 5y ago
> Since WordPress is open-source software, no company technically owns it Uh what? This seems like a gross misunderstanding of FOSS licensing.
- pmlnr 5y ago
  GPL3
  - yepthatsreality 5y ago
    How does GPL3 answer under which organization that Wordpress lives and in which it is maintained? Edit: the Wordpress GitHub also states GPL2
    - the-dude 5y ago
      I can take the Wordpress source and start a company where my copy lives and is maintained. Do I own it now?
      - tyingq 5y ago
        The copyright owner would always have more rights than someone using a GPL licensed copy of the source. Automattic itself doesn't have to abide by GPL terms for whatever use they want to make of Wordpress, WooCommerce, etc. Edit: Seems there's no contributor licensing agreement for Wordpress, so complicated here. Though the general point of copyright holders having specific rights beyond licenses they release under is still relevant, IMO.
        rmccue 5y ago
        WordPress doesn’t have a CLA, so contributors retain rights to their contributions. Automattic is a major contributor to WordPress, and has an agreement with the Foundation to use the trademark, but otherwise has no special permissions†. Also, the Foundation owns the trademark, domains, and is the legal entity for events, but also does not own the copyright on the source code. († nb: some asterisks that only matter to WP insiders) (I’m a long-term contributor to WordPress.)
        mirashii 5y ago
        > Automattic itself doesn't have to abide by GPL terms for whatever use they want to make of Wordpress Yes they do. Automatic doesn’t own the copyright to all the code. Individual contributions are still copyrighted and licensed under the GPL. They would need permission from all previous contributors to relicense it to avoid having to comply with the GPL.
        tyingq 5y ago
        Sure, barring contributions made without contributor agreements in place. They seem to track "copyright holders" for wordpress core and it's not a huge list: https://codex.wordpress.org/Copyright_Holders https://codex.wordpress.org/Copyright_Holders
- rmccue 5y ago
  This is effectively true; as noted in my other comments, WordPress doesn’t have a CLA, so contributors retain rights to their contributions. The trademark, domains, and some other legal parts are owned by the WordPress Foundation. For example, the team working on the React-based rich editor (Gutenberg) wanted to relicense it under dual MPL and GPL in order to encourage adoption within mobile apps (it supports React Native). To do so, they had to get agreement from over 700 contributors to relicense it: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2020/09/21/proposal-dual-licensing-gutenberg-under-gpl-v2-0-and-mpl-v2-0/ https://make.wordpress.org/core/2020/09/21/proposal-dual-lic...
- coldtea 5y ago
  It's still entirely true, in the sense that any release that came out with a FOSS license will perpetually be free to use, extend, do whatever under that license.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jkhdigital 5y ago
This might be the tl;dr quote: > And then he offered the closest thing you’ll find to a Unified Theory of Matt Mullenweg. “As more and more of our lives start to be run and dictated by the technology we use, it's a human right to be able to see how that technology works and modify it. It’s as key to freedom as freedom of speech or freedom of religion. So that is what I plan to spend the rest of my life fighting for.” Contrast with this link also (currently) on the HN front page: https://gavinhoward.com/2021/12/is-it-even-worth-working-on-foss-anymore/ https://gavinhoward.com/2021/12/is-it-even-worth-working-on-...
- tyingq 5y ago
  That does seem laudable, but Automattic isn't open sourcing all the things they are buying either.
- ssl232 5y ago
  I'd rather say the tl;dr quote is: > He plans to spend the rest of his career building the web’s one true platform, the open system the internet deserves. and his Camus quote later on: > "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.”
kingcharles 5y ago
I wish he would fix Tumblr first. They just permabanned my gf's account for no reason at all. Another victim of AI-banning.
isehfb6372 5y ago
The marketing machine around Matt, WP.com, and OSS is just incredible. Automattic has taken nearly a BILLION dollars in VC money (including 300m most recently from Salesforce) to essentially execute a hostile takeover of open of source WordPress. Automattic forced their rewrite of WordPress (a Squarespace clone written in React) on the community and it has been a disaster, leading to many resignations of long-time contributors and their replacement with paid Automattic employees: https://wordpress.org/support/plugin/gutenberg/reviews/ https://wordpress.org/support/plugin/gutenberg/reviews/ Automattic/WordPress is like any other VC-backed venture looking for their exit, except this one is doing off the back of a once-vibrant OSS community. The open source connection is a fairy tale (and apparently powerful marketing tool). They will not save the Internet. https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/automattic https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/automattic
- homarp 5y ago
  isn't that the story/dna of wordpress to evolve https://www.wpexplorer.com/history-wordpress/ https://www.wpexplorer.com/history-wordpress/
- regularjack 5y ago
  > and their replacement with paid Automattic employees Automattic sponsors about 100 people to work on the WordPress open source project, and that's somehow a bad thing? Also, this isn't an Automattic exclusive thing, many other companies do the same: https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledges/?order=contributors https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledges/?order=con... (I'm an Automattic employee, but I don't work directly on the WordPress project)
- coldtea 5y ago
  >to essentially execute a hostile takeover of open of source WordPress The software he himself first created? Could have gone to worse hands. Not to mention it's still 100% FOSS and has been going from strength to strength.
- ffwd 5y ago
  The way I read it was that Matt saw that WP needed to evolve to compete with everything else that exists, and that the volunteer release lead model that they used before could never lead to anything like Gutenberg in such a short time. All Matt has done and said makes me believe he loves OSS, freedom of the user and democratization of publishing. Why would he ruin his own creation by looking for an exit when WP is already hugely popular and more importantly why abandon what seems to be his principles around freedom/OS. I will eat my words in 5-10 years if it isn't true but I think everyone will see he will focus just as much on wp.org and freedom as he does Automattic (ie keeping as much as possible open, free alternatives (like jetpack), etc) ALso Gutenberg is not nearly as bad as those reviews say. It is much better even only in the last few months, though a lot of UX development is needed it is a powerful editor.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ykevinator2 5y ago
hammyhavoc 5y ago
If it involves blockchains, the answer is that he is dooming it.

67 points by decrypt 5y ago

> “I would be very, very interested in Mozilla,” Mullenweg said. Nice. I hope if Mozilla is ever in jeopardy of losing its independence, Mullenweg can scrap together whatever it will cost to buy and fix them. Seems like the right person to look after them.

woodruffw 5y ago
Perhaps it's overly paranoid of me, but I'm not sure that Mozilla being purchased by a firm with significant VC investment is a good thing for its independence.

a5aAqU 5y ago

Start by denouncing AMP.[1] WordPress has been a major supporter. [1] https://wptavern.com/amp-has-irreparably-damaged-publishers-trust-in-google-led-initiatives https://wptavern.com/amp-has-irreparably-damaged-publishers-...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yepthatsreality 5y ago

> Since WordPress is open-source software, no company technically owns it Uh what? This seems like a gross misunderstanding of FOSS licensing.

pmlnr 5y ago
GPL3
- yepthatsreality 5y ago
  How does GPL3 answer under which organization that Wordpress lives and in which it is maintained? Edit: the Wordpress GitHub also states GPL2
  - the-dude 5y ago
    I can take the Wordpress source and start a company where my copy lives and is maintained. Do I own it now?
    - tyingq 5y ago
      The copyright owner would always have more rights than someone using a GPL licensed copy of the source. Automattic itself doesn't have to abide by GPL terms for whatever use they want to make of Wordpress, WooCommerce, etc. Edit: Seems there's no contributor licensing agreement for Wordpress, so complicated here. Though the general point of copyright holders having specific rights beyond licenses they release under is still relevant, IMO.
      - rmccue 5y ago
        WordPress doesn’t have a CLA, so contributors retain rights to their contributions. Automattic is a major contributor to WordPress, and has an agreement with the Foundation to use the trademark, but otherwise has no special permissions†. Also, the Foundation owns the trademark, domains, and is the legal entity for events, but also does not own the copyright on the source code. († nb: some asterisks that only matter to WP insiders) (I’m a long-term contributor to WordPress.)
      - mirashii 5y ago
        > Automattic itself doesn't have to abide by GPL terms for whatever use they want to make of Wordpress Yes they do. Automatic doesn’t own the copyright to all the code. Individual contributions are still copyrighted and licensed under the GPL. They would need permission from all previous contributors to relicense it to avoid having to comply with the GPL.
        tyingq 5y ago
        Sure, barring contributions made without contributor agreements in place. They seem to track "copyright holders" for wordpress core and it's not a huge list: https://codex.wordpress.org/Copyright_Holders https://codex.wordpress.org/Copyright_Holders
rmccue 5y ago
This is effectively true; as noted in my other comments, WordPress doesn’t have a CLA, so contributors retain rights to their contributions. The trademark, domains, and some other legal parts are owned by the WordPress Foundation. For example, the team working on the React-based rich editor (Gutenberg) wanted to relicense it under dual MPL and GPL in order to encourage adoption within mobile apps (it supports React Native). To do so, they had to get agreement from over 700 contributors to relicense it: https://make.wordpress.org/core/2020/09/21/proposal-dual-licensing-gutenberg-under-gpl-v2-0-and-mpl-v2-0/ https://make.wordpress.org/core/2020/09/21/proposal-dual-lic...
coldtea 5y ago
It's still entirely true, in the sense that any release that came out with a FOSS license will perpetually be free to use, extend, do whatever under that license.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jkhdigital 5y ago

This might be the tl;dr quote: > And then he offered the closest thing you’ll find to a Unified Theory of Matt Mullenweg. “As more and more of our lives start to be run and dictated by the technology we use, it's a human right to be able to see how that technology works and modify it. It’s as key to freedom as freedom of speech or freedom of religion. So that is what I plan to spend the rest of my life fighting for.” Contrast with this link also (currently) on the HN front page: https://gavinhoward.com/2021/12/is-it-even-worth-working-on-foss-anymore/ https://gavinhoward.com/2021/12/is-it-even-worth-working-on-...

tyingq 5y ago
That does seem laudable, but Automattic isn't open sourcing all the things they are buying either.
ssl232 5y ago
I'd rather say the tl;dr quote is: > He plans to spend the rest of his career building the web’s one true platform, the open system the internet deserves. and his Camus quote later on: > "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.”

kingcharles 5y ago

I wish he would fix Tumblr first. They just permabanned my gf's account for no reason at all. Another victim of AI-banning.

isehfb6372 5y ago

The marketing machine around Matt, WP.com, and OSS is just incredible. Automattic has taken nearly a BILLION dollars in VC money (including 300m most recently from Salesforce) to essentially execute a hostile takeover of open of source WordPress. Automattic forced their rewrite of WordPress (a Squarespace clone written in React) on the community and it has been a disaster, leading to many resignations of long-time contributors and their replacement with paid Automattic employees: https://wordpress.org/support/plugin/gutenberg/reviews/ https://wordpress.org/support/plugin/gutenberg/reviews/ Automattic/WordPress is like any other VC-backed venture looking for their exit, except this one is doing off the back of a once-vibrant OSS community. The open source connection is a fairy tale (and apparently powerful marketing tool). They will not save the Internet. https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/automattic https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/automattic

homarp 5y ago
isn't that the story/dna of wordpress to evolve https://www.wpexplorer.com/history-wordpress/ https://www.wpexplorer.com/history-wordpress/
regularjack 5y ago
> and their replacement with paid Automattic employees Automattic sponsors about 100 people to work on the WordPress open source project, and that's somehow a bad thing? Also, this isn't an Automattic exclusive thing, many other companies do the same: https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledges/?order=contributors https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/pledges/?order=con... (I'm an Automattic employee, but I don't work directly on the WordPress project)
coldtea 5y ago
>to essentially execute a hostile takeover of open of source WordPress The software he himself first created? Could have gone to worse hands. Not to mention it's still 100% FOSS and has been going from strength to strength.
ffwd 5y ago
The way I read it was that Matt saw that WP needed to evolve to compete with everything else that exists, and that the volunteer release lead model that they used before could never lead to anything like Gutenberg in such a short time. All Matt has done and said makes me believe he loves OSS, freedom of the user and democratization of publishing. Why would he ruin his own creation by looking for an exit when WP is already hugely popular and more importantly why abandon what seems to be his principles around freedom/OS. I will eat my words in 5-10 years if it isn't true but I think everyone will see he will focus just as much on wp.org and freedom as he does Automattic (ie keeping as much as possible open, free alternatives (like jetpack), etc) ALso Gutenberg is not nearly as bad as those reviews say. It is much better even only in the last few months, though a lot of UX development is needed it is a powerful editor.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ykevinator2 5y ago

hammyhavoc 5y ago

If it involves blockchains, the answer is that he is dooming it.