46 ms·

New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

72 points by hswolff 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
literallyaduck 5y ago
All positions are now unique use a guid designation and have the same minimum as maximum are immutable. To change salary the position will be retired and a new one will take its place.
999900000999 5y ago
Way to make harder to get a job! For my first salary role I took half the advertised pay as I knew less than half of what they wanted. With this crap I'd just not get the job.
- millzlane 5y ago
  I don't even waste my time applying if I don't know what to expect for compensation. So it's already hard to get a job.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  The law does not prevent this.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    The law opens any employer up to dozens of lawsuits if they hire people for less than what was advertised.
    - frumper 5y ago
      They still need to hire. Employers don't hire for the fun of it.
      - redis_mlc 5y ago
        > They still need to hire. But they don't need to hire in NYC, and companies look at other regulations when deciding head count. For example, you'll see a lot of startups freeze hiring at employee #49, since in the US (and other countries), there's a ton of HR requirements that kick in, including submitting IRS documents on magnetic tape. One of Netscape's early advantages was that since they knew they would hire thousands of people, they skipped over all of the entry-level HR systems and started with enterprise-level systems. It was controversial at the time, but turned out to be the correct decision (the first exec was from SGI, so knew what growth looked like.)
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > The law opens any employer up to dozens of lawsuits if they hire people for less than what was advertised. If it actually does do that, then spell out why that's the case (e.g. what's the penalty for hiring someone for a salary outside the posted range)? The OP makes it sound like this is only to address certain information asymmetries in salary negotiation: > Currently, New York City employers are allowed to withhold pay information until the end of the hiring process. > Advocates of the bill argue that this forces applications into unequal negotiations throughout the hiring process without the critical piece of knowledge around salary. > “Lack of salary transparency is discriminatory and anti-worker,” said Rosenthal. “Every New Yorker should have the right to determine whether they will be able to support themselves and their family when they apply for a job. It is time to level the playing field, and restore some dignity to New Yorkers seeking employment.” > ...Job postings without salary range information can be reported to the city’s Commission on Human Rights. Based on the article, I see no reason why someone would be prevented from consenting to pay below the position's current minimum, so long as they have full knowledge that is what they are in fact doing.
      - 999900000999 5y ago
        >Based on the article, I see no reason why someone would be prevented from consenting to pay below the position's current minimum, so long as they have full knowledge that is what they are in fact doing As they say, the path to Hell is paved with good intentions, I see no reason why an HR department would take the risk. When I was in my early 20s I had no degree or real experience. With misguided laws like this I wouldn't of been offered a job. It's not on your employer to pay you 100k for your first job. You endure making a bit less for a while. Then about 3 years later you get your 100k job
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > As they say, the path to Hell is paved with good intentions... The other path to Hell is to not act on good intentions. > With misguided laws like this I wouldn't of been offered a job. No, you're just making that assumption.
- eschewobfuscat 5y ago
  This hasn't caused jobs to disappear in Colorado, which has a similar law.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    >Colorado remote workers need not apply: Companies avoid state due to salary-posting law https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/26/colorado-remote-work-job-postings-salary-range/ https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/26/colorado-remote-work-j...
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    For remote work it has. I see postings all the time "Residents of Colorado are ineligible for this position"
  - Kranar 5y ago
    Several companies refuse to hire from Colorado over its law: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/remote-jobs-colorado-equal-pay/619581/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/remote-...
    - eschewobfuscat 5y ago
      And these are all anecdotes. The unemployment rate has followed the national trend for Colorado, and there does not appear to be a shortage of remote work for software engineers.
hellisothers 5y ago
At least in tech this has been mostly worthless in CA where your equity makes up 25-75% of your total comp and isn’t required to be reported since it isn’t your “salary”.
- kf6nux 5y ago
  It depends a lot on where you land in tech (both department and company). That's definitely true for SWEs at FAANG companies. I wonder what it would take to update these laws to require total comp disclosure instead of simply salary disclosure.
Manuel_D 5y ago
Minimum salary: $10,000 per year. Maximum salary: $1,000,000 per year. Legal compliance achieved, while still effectively maintaining confidentiality of salary info.
- spicybright 5y ago
  Not sure I follow. The min and max would be based all the real job in the company. Otherwise it's useless.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: It's amazing how some people lazily assume they're so much cleverer than everyone else. A good heuristic is to assume you're just plain wrong if you think you've discovered a way to weasel out of a law with only five seconds worth of thought.
    - erichocean 5y ago
      Right, the first thing a compliance officer will ask is: "what are your <employees of this category> actually paid right now?" When your given range and that range don't roughly coincide, they'll ask why—and then fine you for your bullshit "are you a mind reader?" response.
      - Manuel_D 5y ago
        > Right, the first thing a compliance officer will ask is: "what are your <employees of this category> actually paid right now?" And then you can point out to entry level software developers and much more senior ones and demonstrate that such a wide range is not only feasible, but already exists between employees.
commandlinefan 5y ago
Will be interesting to see how many (and which) corporations move headquarters to get around this.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  Can you think of a single example of a company for which moving headquarters might make sense because of this law? Remember that it applies only to salary (not total compensation) and it applies to jobs done in NYC, not jobs done for companies whose headquarters are in NYC.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Will be interesting to see how many (and which) corporations move headquarters to get around this This is the wrong target. Large companies are generally fine with these sorts of laws. It's the small companies who now have another of ten million disclosure laws they have to follow, laws which vary from county to county.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    What “small” company is hiring employees in so many countries that it’s burdensome to publish wages on their website.
    - frankbreetz 5y ago
      Any company that wants to be "worldwide remote". You have to post the info before you hire, so if you if want to hire anywhere in the world you have to meet the requirements for every country. Even if you only end up hiring from a couple countries
      - DarylZero 5y ago
        So all remote jobs will have to post salaries if they want any hires from NYC? Sounds good to me.
imapeopleperson 5y ago
I’m worried I’ll get paid less so that others won’t have to get paid more.
- erichocean 5y ago
  That's the goal, comrade. Equity for all!
dehrmann 5y ago
This might work better with government jobs than private sector, and it feels like public sector policymakers trying to manage businesses like they manage the government. Government jobs are more likely to have tight wage bands and strict requirements. The private sector will "figure something out" for a p90 candidate. Since candidates will always ask for the top of the band, I'd expect either very tight bands and candidates get moved to "more appropriate" openings or bands covering 3 standard deviations so employers can claim the range is in good faith, but still leave room for negotiation.

72 points by hswolff 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

All positions are now unique use a guid designation and have the same minimum as maximum are immutable. To change salary the position will be retired and a new one will take its place.

999900000999 5y ago

Way to make harder to get a job! For my first salary role I took half the advertised pay as I knew less than half of what they wanted. With this crap I'd just not get the job.

millzlane 5y ago
I don't even waste my time applying if I don't know what to expect for compensation. So it's already hard to get a job.
rahimnathwani 5y ago
The law does not prevent this.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  The law opens any employer up to dozens of lawsuits if they hire people for less than what was advertised.
  - frumper 5y ago
    They still need to hire. Employers don't hire for the fun of it.
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      > They still need to hire. But they don't need to hire in NYC, and companies look at other regulations when deciding head count. For example, you'll see a lot of startups freeze hiring at employee #49, since in the US (and other countries), there's a ton of HR requirements that kick in, including submitting IRS documents on magnetic tape. One of Netscape's early advantages was that since they knew they would hire thousands of people, they skipped over all of the entry-level HR systems and started with enterprise-level systems. It was controversial at the time, but turned out to be the correct decision (the first exec was from SGI, so knew what growth looked like.)
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > The law opens any employer up to dozens of lawsuits if they hire people for less than what was advertised. If it actually does do that, then spell out why that's the case (e.g. what's the penalty for hiring someone for a salary outside the posted range)? The OP makes it sound like this is only to address certain information asymmetries in salary negotiation: > Currently, New York City employers are allowed to withhold pay information until the end of the hiring process. > Advocates of the bill argue that this forces applications into unequal negotiations throughout the hiring process without the critical piece of knowledge around salary. > “Lack of salary transparency is discriminatory and anti-worker,” said Rosenthal. “Every New Yorker should have the right to determine whether they will be able to support themselves and their family when they apply for a job. It is time to level the playing field, and restore some dignity to New Yorkers seeking employment.” > ...Job postings without salary range information can be reported to the city’s Commission on Human Rights. Based on the article, I see no reason why someone would be prevented from consenting to pay below the position's current minimum, so long as they have full knowledge that is what they are in fact doing.
    - 999900000999 5y ago
      >Based on the article, I see no reason why someone would be prevented from consenting to pay below the position's current minimum, so long as they have full knowledge that is what they are in fact doing As they say, the path to Hell is paved with good intentions, I see no reason why an HR department would take the risk. When I was in my early 20s I had no degree or real experience. With misguided laws like this I wouldn't of been offered a job. It's not on your employer to pay you 100k for your first job. You endure making a bit less for a while. Then about 3 years later you get your 100k job
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > As they say, the path to Hell is paved with good intentions... The other path to Hell is to not act on good intentions. > With misguided laws like this I wouldn't of been offered a job. No, you're just making that assumption.
eschewobfuscat 5y ago
This hasn't caused jobs to disappear in Colorado, which has a similar law.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  >Colorado remote workers need not apply: Companies avoid state due to salary-posting law https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/26/colorado-remote-work-job-postings-salary-range/ https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/26/colorado-remote-work-j...
- redis_mlc 5y ago
- missedthecue 5y ago
  For remote work it has. I see postings all the time "Residents of Colorado are ineligible for this position"
- Kranar 5y ago
  Several companies refuse to hire from Colorado over its law: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/remote-jobs-colorado-equal-pay/619581/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/remote-...
  - eschewobfuscat 5y ago
    And these are all anecdotes. The unemployment rate has followed the national trend for Colorado, and there does not appear to be a shortage of remote work for software engineers.

hellisothers 5y ago

At least in tech this has been mostly worthless in CA where your equity makes up 25-75% of your total comp and isn’t required to be reported since it isn’t your “salary”.

kf6nux 5y ago
It depends a lot on where you land in tech (both department and company). That's definitely true for SWEs at FAANG companies. I wonder what it would take to update these laws to require total comp disclosure instead of simply salary disclosure.

Manuel_D 5y ago

Minimum salary: $10,000 per year. Maximum salary: $1,000,000 per year. Legal compliance achieved, while still effectively maintaining confidentiality of salary info.

spicybright 5y ago
Not sure I follow. The min and max would be based all the real job in the company. Otherwise it's useless.
rahimnathwani 5y ago
That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: It's amazing how some people lazily assume they're so much cleverer than everyone else. A good heuristic is to assume you're just plain wrong if you think you've discovered a way to weasel out of a law with only five seconds worth of thought.
  - erichocean 5y ago
    Right, the first thing a compliance officer will ask is: "what are your <employees of this category> actually paid right now?" When your given range and that range don't roughly coincide, they'll ask why—and then fine you for your bullshit "are you a mind reader?" response.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      > Right, the first thing a compliance officer will ask is: "what are your <employees of this category> actually paid right now?" And then you can point out to entry level software developers and much more senior ones and demonstrate that such a wide range is not only feasible, but already exists between employees.

commandlinefan 5y ago

Will be interesting to see how many (and which) corporations move headquarters to get around this.

rahimnathwani 5y ago
Can you think of a single example of a company for which moving headquarters might make sense because of this law? Remember that it applies only to salary (not total compensation) and it applies to jobs done in NYC, not jobs done for companies whose headquarters are in NYC.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Will be interesting to see how many (and which) corporations move headquarters to get around this This is the wrong target. Large companies are generally fine with these sorts of laws. It's the small companies who now have another of ten million disclosure laws they have to follow, laws which vary from county to county.
- Spivak 5y ago
  What “small” company is hiring employees in so many countries that it’s burdensome to publish wages on their website.
  - frankbreetz 5y ago
    Any company that wants to be "worldwide remote". You have to post the info before you hire, so if you if want to hire anywhere in the world you have to meet the requirements for every country. Even if you only end up hiring from a couple countries
    - DarylZero 5y ago
      So all remote jobs will have to post salaries if they want any hires from NYC? Sounds good to me.

imapeopleperson 5y ago

I’m worried I’ll get paid less so that others won’t have to get paid more.

erichocean 5y ago
That's the goal, comrade. Equity for all!

dehrmann 5y ago

This might work better with government jobs than private sector, and it feels like public sector policymakers trying to manage businesses like they manage the government. Government jobs are more likely to have tight wage bands and strict requirements. The private sector will "figure something out" for a p90 candidate. Since candidates will always ask for the top of the band, I'd expect either very tight bands and candidates get moved to "more appropriate" openings or bands covering 3 standard deviations so employers can claim the range is in good faith, but still leave room for negotiation.