6 ms·

Because whether or not Bitcoin is silly, someone else paid their hard earned money for the coins, usually we say that makes someone the owner. What do you usua

Because whether or not Bitcoin is silly, someone else paid their hard earned money for the coins, usually we say that makes someone the owner. What do you usually call someone who takes a thing from its owner without permission?

seanw444 5y ago
Borrowing it, obviously ;)
henvic 5y ago
Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it. And you might argue things like privacy count, and I'd be willing to hear your reasoning, but this shouldn't be like magic. Yeah, someone was silly to pay hard earned money in exchange from useless tokens. It was a gamble. If the useless tokens get stolen, I'm sorry to say, but whoever paid for BTC already lost their wealth in the first place when they converted whatever they had before for it.
- iosjunkie 5y ago
  The balance of your bank account is similarly “information”. But since everyone places value on that information, it’s valuable. And these days, they way society is using traditional currency is become less tangible all the time. It’s is 100% possible to live life with never touching physical currency. Get paid via direct deposit, credit cards for your daily expenses, ACH your housing bill and credit card expenses. All just information flowing around. Crypto is certainly overhyped and overvalued days, but it’s seems that at the core, crypto and modern banking are accomplishing the same thing: managing numbers(information) that people value.
  - AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
    The key difference is that one of these things has the backing and approval of recognized governments who also control law enforcement, while the other is just some guys on the internet. I'm not so sure "finding a pre-existing bitcoin wallet I can claim, and doing so" is really any different than "generating hashes until the blockchain hands me a prize".
    - azth 5y ago
      That's not an argument. In any case, more and more governments are now recognizing crypto as something real, and are coming onboard. E.g. most recently Dubai.
      - CamelRocketFish 5y ago
        Could you tell me how it’s changing in Dubai?
        azth 5y ago
        Look up dubai crypto hub
        CamelRocketFish 5y ago
        Thank you!
        azth 5y ago
        Are you based there?
- azth 5y ago
  So if I do a bank transfer from your account to mine, I'm just "copying information".
  - henvic 5y ago
    No. You're accessing computer resources that you don't own and you aren't authorized to.
    - azth 5y ago
      Same with private cryptocurrency keys. Otherwise, accessing non-public APIs with weak security by playing around with the URL would be legal.
      - henvic 5y ago
        No. Invalid comparison. If you legitimately discover a cryptocurrency wallet private key by sheet lucky, and such cryptocurrency has no backing = is based in pure thin air, such as the case of Bitcoin, and there are public nodes which doesn't require you to abide by contracts that would forbid you to do so (which is supposedly all nodes), you're good to use that as you wish and it won't be a crime. It's unethical to steal something tangible. Bitcoin has no tangibility whatsoever. You can't steal it.
        smus 5y ago
        Bits on a server representing your account balance also have no tangibility
        henvic 5y ago
        Jeez! So, are you telling me that cloud isn't someone's else computer? Damn it.
        smus 5y ago
        hmm? Do you think the blockchain isn't also on a bunch of people's computers?
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it. It's true that information is infinitely abundant. However, unlike copyrighted works, private keys are not supposed to be shared. There should never be more than one copy of that number in the entire universe. If people can brute force keys by guessing, we've probably got bigger problems. Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime.
  - henvic 5y ago
    > Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime. Sure thing. Hence, the importance of analyzing each case individually. If unauthorized computer access is used, sure thing a crime was committed. If someone created a wallet using a stupid wallet generator which used this website to "create" private keys, and someone else also had this silly idea, and someone deposited Bitcoin on a wallet created by this mean and and someone else took it, then no crime was committed.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      Yeah, I agree with that. You don't even need the website. Cryptographic keys are just numbers. All data is just numbers. You can write simple code to generate all numbers from zero to infinity and it will eventually generate all cryptograhpic keys, all computer files, all copyrighted works, all hate speech, all child abuse material, everything that can possibly be represented as data. The thing is the search space is so unfathomably large that such a program will never produce useful results. This is central to cryptography. If a private key is copied, it must have been done so illegally or accidentally. Any other option means the cryptography is defective. This is the complete opposite of copyrighted works whose entire purpose is copying. The data is already known and they're hopelessly trying to regulate access to it.
      - 5y ago
- DarylZero 5y ago
  The same thing is true about a bank account. Your balance is just information. Cash is just useless tokens.
hellojesus 5y ago
The problem with crypto is the ownership (edit: maybe I should say authorization to transact) is defined only by the private key. You may get lucky with KYC, but who in their right mind would gen a collision only to get caught on the cash out? You're not in control once someone has your pk unless you can mobilize a 51% attack to fix your problem.

seanw444 5y ago

Borrowing it, obviously ;)

henvic 5y ago

Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it. And you might argue things like privacy count, and I'd be willing to hear your reasoning, but this shouldn't be like magic. Yeah, someone was silly to pay hard earned money in exchange from useless tokens. It was a gamble. If the useless tokens get stolen, I'm sorry to say, but whoever paid for BTC already lost their wealth in the first place when they converted whatever they had before for it.

iosjunkie 5y ago
The balance of your bank account is similarly “information”. But since everyone places value on that information, it’s valuable. And these days, they way society is using traditional currency is become less tangible all the time. It’s is 100% possible to live life with never touching physical currency. Get paid via direct deposit, credit cards for your daily expenses, ACH your housing bill and credit card expenses. All just information flowing around. Crypto is certainly overhyped and overvalued days, but it’s seems that at the core, crypto and modern banking are accomplishing the same thing: managing numbers(information) that people value.
- AstroDogCatcher 5y ago
  The key difference is that one of these things has the backing and approval of recognized governments who also control law enforcement, while the other is just some guys on the internet. I'm not so sure "finding a pre-existing bitcoin wallet I can claim, and doing so" is really any different than "generating hashes until the blockchain hands me a prize".
  - azth 5y ago
    That's not an argument. In any case, more and more governments are now recognizing crypto as something real, and are coming onboard. E.g. most recently Dubai.
    - CamelRocketFish 5y ago
      Could you tell me how it’s changing in Dubai?
      - azth 5y ago
        Look up dubai crypto hub
        CamelRocketFish 5y ago
        Thank you!
        azth 5y ago
        Are you based there?
azth 5y ago
So if I do a bank transfer from your account to mine, I'm just "copying information".
- henvic 5y ago
  No. You're accessing computer resources that you don't own and you aren't authorized to.
  - azth 5y ago
    Same with private cryptocurrency keys. Otherwise, accessing non-public APIs with weak security by playing around with the URL would be legal.
    - henvic 5y ago
      No. Invalid comparison. If you legitimately discover a cryptocurrency wallet private key by sheet lucky, and such cryptocurrency has no backing = is based in pure thin air, such as the case of Bitcoin, and there are public nodes which doesn't require you to abide by contracts that would forbid you to do so (which is supposedly all nodes), you're good to use that as you wish and it won't be a crime. It's unethical to steal something tangible. Bitcoin has no tangibility whatsoever. You can't steal it.
      - smus 5y ago
        Bits on a server representing your account balance also have no tangibility
        henvic 5y ago
        Jeez! So, are you telling me that cloud isn't someone's else computer? Damn it.
        smus 5y ago
        hmm? Do you think the blockchain isn't also on a bunch of people's computers?
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it. It's true that information is infinitely abundant. However, unlike copyrighted works, private keys are not supposed to be shared. There should never be more than one copy of that number in the entire universe. If people can brute force keys by guessing, we've probably got bigger problems. Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime.
- henvic 5y ago
  > Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime. Sure thing. Hence, the importance of analyzing each case individually. If unauthorized computer access is used, sure thing a crime was committed. If someone created a wallet using a stupid wallet generator which used this website to "create" private keys, and someone else also had this silly idea, and someone deposited Bitcoin on a wallet created by this mean and and someone else took it, then no crime was committed.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Yeah, I agree with that. You don't even need the website. Cryptographic keys are just numbers. All data is just numbers. You can write simple code to generate all numbers from zero to infinity and it will eventually generate all cryptograhpic keys, all computer files, all copyrighted works, all hate speech, all child abuse material, everything that can possibly be represented as data. The thing is the search space is so unfathomably large that such a program will never produce useful results. This is central to cryptography. If a private key is copied, it must have been done so illegally or accidentally. Any other option means the cryptography is defective. This is the complete opposite of copyrighted works whose entire purpose is copying. The data is already known and they're hopelessly trying to regulate access to it.
    - 5y ago
DarylZero 5y ago
The same thing is true about a bank account. Your balance is just information. Cash is just useless tokens.

hellojesus 5y ago

The problem with crypto is the ownership (edit: maybe I should say authorization to transact) is defined only by the private key. You may get lucky with KYC, but who in their right mind would gen a collision only to get caught on the cash out? You're not in control once someone has your pk unless you can mobilize a 51% attack to fix your problem.