5 ms·

I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and i

I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers. That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
- dr_kiszonka 5y ago
  They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
jmarcher 5y ago
My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.
- warp 5y ago
  If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or whatever combination you want.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    But at this point you are just fixing an invented problem with more tasks to be done. A lot of these custom keyboards could just have been built with more of the standard keys.
    - rgoulter 5y ago
      Pessimistic: "without the full set of keyswitches, you need to use fancy tricks to make shortcuts usable". Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts easily accessible without the need for the full set of keyswitches". e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per OS), but it feels so convenient.
      - avgcorrection 5y ago
        Enlightened middle way: Custom software keyboard configuration that works with any keyboard and that doesn’t have to solve invented problems like “No man there is no Home key why would you need that just use this QMK module bro and—” I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
        rgoulter 5y ago
        > I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts? Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.
avgcorrection 5y ago
Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if touch typing) and second of all because you have to coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right order (e.g. control before C). “But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left). It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.

dr_kiszonka 5y ago
They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
- foxfluff 5y ago
  IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

jmarcher 5y ago

My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.

warp 5y ago
If you're using layers already, it's a small step to just add dedicated keys for those things in a layer. So that becomes LayerX + 9, or LayerX + R (for rebuild), or whatever combination you want.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  But at this point you are just fixing an invented problem with more tasks to be done. A lot of these custom keyboards could just have been built with more of the standard keys.
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    Pessimistic: "without the full set of keyswitches, you need to use fancy tricks to make shortcuts usable". Optimistic: "with fancy tricks, you can make shortcuts easily accessible without the need for the full set of keyswitches". e.g. on my keyboard I have shortcuts for "goto desktop left" when I press "cv", (and "goto desktop right" when I press "m,"). This is more complex than a standard keyboard's Ctrl+Shift+Right (or whatever, as varies per OS), but it feels so convenient.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      Enlightened middle way: Custom software keyboard configuration that works with any keyboard and that doesn’t have to solve invented problems like “No man there is no Home key why would you need that just use this QMK module bro and—” I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts?
      - rgoulter 5y ago
        > I am intrigued by your key chords though. You can’t get key chords like that with a stock keyboard. Does it rely on the key-up event to distinguish between “cv” (one keychord” and “c” and “v” (separate)? Or does it rely on timeouts? Timeouts. I believe it's similar to how some users use "jk" as more convenient than the escape key.

avgcorrection 5y ago

Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if touch typing) and second of all because you have to coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right order (e.g. control before C). “But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left). It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.