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> The U.S North American Bird Conservation Initiative estimates that our pet felines kill some 2.6 billion birds annually in the U.S. alone. The 100M pet cats

> The U.S North American Bird Conservation Initiative estimates that our pet felines kill some 2.6 billion birds annually in the U.S. alone. The 100M pet cats in US on average kill 26 birds/yr? Doesn't seem right. When I track the source[1] of research, the estimates include both "own" and "unowned" cats and rely on some assumptions like "a correction factor to account for owned cats not returning all prey to owners", amongst others. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380.pdf

rowathay 5y ago
It’s an estimate based on fairly thorough research, which includes attaching collar cameras to outdoor cats. The carnage they wreak is impressive. Cats belong indoors, period.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  It seems like this is just narrative based judgment. Everyone is all about how reintroduced wolves are so great for XYZ because predators do so many good things for environments and prey dynamics but cats in the environment are bad for ABC and they kill all the birds, etc. Most of the places which aren’t islands had predators in roughly the housecat niche before human civilization and many of those are lost. I think it’s just the opposition by agriculture for wolves and the fact that people aren’t as affectionate for their prey which makes the “wolves good” narrative and people like birds and feel good about blaming humans so there’s “cats bad” narrative. It probably doesn’t matter, your suburban cats are killing birds in a habitat that humans already destroyed by putting a suburb there. If you want to make a difference to offset some cat activity plant native pollinator friendly plants and trees and shrubs that bear fruit for birds. You’ll make much more difference building habitat than complaining into the void.
  - MAGZine 5y ago
    There's a lot going on here to try and avoid the statement that introducing predators to a given area's biome changes the balance of things. This is especially true when you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it (and not letting its population remain harmonious with available food supply/prey).
    - ericmay 5y ago
      > This is especially true when you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it (and not letting its population remain harmonious with available food supply/prey). Yeeeeeeah but that’s true of all human cultivation of animals, including bees, cows, and tilapia. I mean I’m also not sure what you’re getting at with the feeding of cats thing. I don’t know anybody that’s like hardcore pro-feral cat. Most people just have an indoor cat which kills 0-1 birds/year and feed it cat food. But anyway to my interpretation of the Op’s point. Who cares how many birds die when (if you’re like me - Canadian Geese) they’re getting run over by cars and starving to death and can’t replenish their numbers because their nesting grounds were turned into a parking lot? This problem, like sooooo many others stem from our terrible relationship with nature and inability to admit we already know how to build towns and cities in harmony with nature and we don’t need to invent crap like highways or suburbs.
      - hactually 5y ago
        an indoor cat should be killing 0; not a range of 0-1.
        ericmay 5y ago
        Should be. But cats get loose. Some escape. Calamity ensues. The primary issue is probably not house cats but our destruction of natural habitats. Ducks can’t land and swim on top of a Starbucks.
    - scythe 5y ago
      >you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it ... and constrain its population by neutering it, and reduce its hunting behavior by keeping it inside most of the time. Cats are native to North America. Animals in North America have evolved to avoid cats. This is not some island in the Pacific Ocean which forms the only habitat for a rare flightless bird with no natural fear of felines. I live in a dense suburb of Providence which is surrounded by roads and buildings for miles in every direction. There are cats running all over the neighborhood, which is very cute and fun to watch. I do not own a cat and never have. You know what else this place is full of? Squirrels, rabbits, and several colors of loud-ass birds. Apparently the cats aren't quite the slaughter machines they're made out to be. Now, I would absolutely agree that if you live in a "wild" rural area, especially in or near a wetland/high altitude/island ecosystem, you need to keep the cats inside. But in a city, full of animals that have co-evolved with humans and their pets for centuries and in some cases millenia? Give me a break.
elihu 5y ago
That sounds plausible. Cats can be very effective predators.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
26 a year for an outdoor cat honestly seems low to me… that’s 1 every other week. I had one cat that I started keeping inside because it was approaching one per day. Without us they’d be doing this for sustenance, so in theory multiple kills a day.
- pirate787 5y ago
  Agree, we have an indoor/outdoor cat, he's fixed and usually has a bell collar on, and he still kills more than 26 birds and mice a year.
- damnedspot 5y ago
  Worse than for sustenance: I've read that about 2/3 of animals cats kill aren't eaten. They're doing it for sport...
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  Yes, but cats and birds have existed together for, I don't know, millions of years? Without cats causing a mass extinction of birds. And why is that?
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    the increase of cats as pets seems like a possible factor, one rough estimate says the US has 3X more housecats than it did in 1970... so it certainly seems possible that we've thrown off a more natural equilibrium https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Growth-of-the-house-cat-population-in-the-United-States-over-time-Population-estimates_fig1_41101366 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Growth-of-the-house-cat-...
PeterisP 5y ago
This seems quite plausible, it's consistent with e.g. 90% of cats killing nothing and 10% of cats killing less than a bird/egg per day - and an outdoors cat can do much more than that.
trhway 5y ago
> When I track the source[1] of research Ah, the famous anti-cat "study" (giving its huge glaring deficiencies it is more like propaganda pamphlet) by Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center where a postdoc got convicted several years ago for animal cruelty committed toward cats! That is really objective people without agenda... Would you take seriously for example a study by child molesters on societal benefits of child molestation?

rowathay 5y ago

It’s an estimate based on fairly thorough research, which includes attaching collar cameras to outdoor cats. The carnage they wreak is impressive. Cats belong indoors, period.

colechristensen 5y ago
It seems like this is just narrative based judgment. Everyone is all about how reintroduced wolves are so great for XYZ because predators do so many good things for environments and prey dynamics but cats in the environment are bad for ABC and they kill all the birds, etc. Most of the places which aren’t islands had predators in roughly the housecat niche before human civilization and many of those are lost. I think it’s just the opposition by agriculture for wolves and the fact that people aren’t as affectionate for their prey which makes the “wolves good” narrative and people like birds and feel good about blaming humans so there’s “cats bad” narrative. It probably doesn’t matter, your suburban cats are killing birds in a habitat that humans already destroyed by putting a suburb there. If you want to make a difference to offset some cat activity plant native pollinator friendly plants and trees and shrubs that bear fruit for birds. You’ll make much more difference building habitat than complaining into the void.
- MAGZine 5y ago
  There's a lot going on here to try and avoid the statement that introducing predators to a given area's biome changes the balance of things. This is especially true when you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it (and not letting its population remain harmonious with available food supply/prey).
  - ericmay 5y ago
    > This is especially true when you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it (and not letting its population remain harmonious with available food supply/prey). Yeeeeeeah but that’s true of all human cultivation of animals, including bees, cows, and tilapia. I mean I’m also not sure what you’re getting at with the feeding of cats thing. I don’t know anybody that’s like hardcore pro-feral cat. Most people just have an indoor cat which kills 0-1 birds/year and feed it cat food. But anyway to my interpretation of the Op’s point. Who cares how many birds die when (if you’re like me - Canadian Geese) they’re getting run over by cars and starving to death and can’t replenish their numbers because their nesting grounds were turned into a parking lot? This problem, like sooooo many others stem from our terrible relationship with nature and inability to admit we already know how to build towns and cities in harmony with nature and we don’t need to invent crap like highways or suburbs.
    - hactually 5y ago
      an indoor cat should be killing 0; not a range of 0-1.
      - ericmay 5y ago
        Should be. But cats get loose. Some escape. Calamity ensues. The primary issue is probably not house cats but our destruction of natural habitats. Ducks can’t land and swim on top of a Starbucks.
  - scythe 5y ago
    >you prop up that predator's existence by feeding it ... and constrain its population by neutering it, and reduce its hunting behavior by keeping it inside most of the time. Cats are native to North America. Animals in North America have evolved to avoid cats. This is not some island in the Pacific Ocean which forms the only habitat for a rare flightless bird with no natural fear of felines. I live in a dense suburb of Providence which is surrounded by roads and buildings for miles in every direction. There are cats running all over the neighborhood, which is very cute and fun to watch. I do not own a cat and never have. You know what else this place is full of? Squirrels, rabbits, and several colors of loud-ass birds. Apparently the cats aren't quite the slaughter machines they're made out to be. Now, I would absolutely agree that if you live in a "wild" rural area, especially in or near a wetland/high altitude/island ecosystem, you need to keep the cats inside. But in a city, full of animals that have co-evolved with humans and their pets for centuries and in some cases millenia? Give me a break.

elihu 5y ago

That sounds plausible. Cats can be very effective predators.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

26 a year for an outdoor cat honestly seems low to me… that’s 1 every other week. I had one cat that I started keeping inside because it was approaching one per day. Without us they’d be doing this for sustenance, so in theory multiple kills a day.

pirate787 5y ago
Agree, we have an indoor/outdoor cat, he's fixed and usually has a bell collar on, and he still kills more than 26 birds and mice a year.
damnedspot 5y ago
Worse than for sustenance: I've read that about 2/3 of animals cats kill aren't eaten. They're doing it for sport...
cheese_goddess 5y ago
Yes, but cats and birds have existed together for, I don't know, millions of years? Without cats causing a mass extinction of birds. And why is that?
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  the increase of cats as pets seems like a possible factor, one rough estimate says the US has 3X more housecats than it did in 1970... so it certainly seems possible that we've thrown off a more natural equilibrium https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Growth-of-the-house-cat-population-in-the-United-States-over-time-Population-estimates_fig1_41101366 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Growth-of-the-house-cat-...

PeterisP 5y ago

This seems quite plausible, it's consistent with e.g. 90% of cats killing nothing and 10% of cats killing less than a bird/egg per day - and an outdoors cat can do much more than that.

trhway 5y ago

> When I track the source[1] of research Ah, the famous anti-cat "study" (giving its huge glaring deficiencies it is more like propaganda pamphlet) by Smithsonian Migratory Bird Center where a postdoc got convicted several years ago for animal cruelty committed toward cats! That is really objective people without agenda... Would you take seriously for example a study by child molesters on societal benefits of child molestation?