10 ms·

In Australia, one of the big reasons have been invasive surveillance - They have multiple cameras set up inside, tracking how many seconds you are looking here

In Australia, one of the big reasons have been invasive surveillance - They have multiple cameras set up inside, tracking how many seconds you are looking here or there. If it detects your eyes not doing what the AI deems acceptable, then it pings your manager up in his executive chair and they get to yell at you. Basically takes your attention completely out of driving the truck and doing your job, to deliberately making actions to stay within the allowed parameters of AI.

siva7 5y ago
I laughed until i realized that I’ve seen the exact software for this already, so it is unfortunately not an exaggeration.
ishjoh 5y ago
My father in law has been a trucker in the US for a long time, and really enjoys it, or rather used too. Video cameras being installed in the truck cab are the reason he's changed his opinion. In every way he is an upstanding citizen, employee, and driver, and even though he's passed retirement age he enjoys driving seasonally. I think this will be his last season due to the cameras. I know that if someone was watching me during all working hours I would also look for the exit.
caterama 5y ago
That sounds like a horrible situation to be in, but I can also understand the safety benefit. From high school, I remember a friend telling me about how they crashed. They glanced at the radio to switch channels (or change volume or something), which was just enough for the situation on the road to change and they hit the car in front of them. Clearly, that wasn't a good time to look away for even a split second, and a mature driver should know that. The empty highway has a lot more "safe" opportunities for glances away from the road, but I'm sure there's friction because the AI isn't lenient in this way. By the time the AI is aware of that, it's probably going to be doing the driving anyway! I recently used lane keeping assistance and automatic cruise control for a long distance road trip, and it's SO liberating. You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. I never felt safe doing that in an old car. The new experience is simply not as exhausting as running the speed check, lane check, distance check loop required in old cars.
- donw 5y ago
  > You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. Until you discover that the driver aid doesn't work correctly at that time.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Typically these things are not about improving safety but about reducing liability for the company and shifting blame to the employee.
- stavros 5y ago
  Yes, but, as you say, the AI should be looking outside, rather than at the driver.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  > I recently used lane keeping assistance and automatic cruise control for a long distance road trip, and it's SO liberating. You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. And then you read about Teslas crashing into stationary vehicles because their drivers weren't attentive enough. Current driver assist tech is dangerous because it is good enough to make you trust it to some extent, but not good enough to actually deal with unexpected situations when your attention isn't 100% on the road.
  - caterama 5y ago
    I don't think all driver assist tech is dangerous. Tesla FSD is dangerous because the name suggests no supervision is needed, and it's good enough that drivers fall asleep at the wheel. My driver assist experience is with a 2020 Honda Insight. The LASK/ACC features make the car a collaborator in the driving process. I can't fall asleep, it requires too much supervision/collaboration. But instead of running the exhausting speed/lane position/follow distance loop as fast as I can, I can do it at some variable fraction of that speed depending on road conditions. I have to monitor for the things I know or suspect cause issues for the automated system. For example, it generally wants to follow exits, so I have to put resistance on the wheel when passing exits to keep it on the highway. On the other hand, it is excellent (better than me) at making fine adjustments to stay between well marked lines on long straight stretches... that's where I feel comfortable stealing a glance out the side window or resting my foot on the floor instead of hovering over the pedals. It doesn't avoid debris sitting in the middle of the road, so I have to watch for that and wrestle LKAS to avoid if I see that coming.
donw 5y ago
That's just... inhuman.
- lbriner 5y ago
  It's not in-human if you can't trust your drivers to do their job honestly. It won't be used everywhere but if you constantly wonder why some drivers seem to deliver far less than others and then it magically disappears once you install monitoring, it "proves its worth". It doesn't sound nice but when margins are paper-thin, it is not surprising.
  - ResearchCode 5y ago
    But who's monitoring the monitors - bet margins are not thin enough not to offer cushy non-monitored positions for management.
  - g3rald0s 5y ago
    If margins are paper thin, they should cut costs elsewhere, not human lives. I know a trucker who's stated that if they didn't lie on their timesheets or use amphetamines, there's no way they'd get the driving required done, they'd get canned, and another person would either falsify or use uppers to keep going. This kind of thinking could then be used for anything - office building workers, for instance, why is 0.5% of time mail not being sorted? It's entirely dehumanizing and takes creative process and ingenuity (what little there is in autonomous jobs) down the drain.
    - bin_bash 5y ago
      > timesheets or use amphetamines If you're not lying on your timesheets, why would you need to resort to amphetamines?
      - sumtechguy 5y ago
        Many companies are movie to digital timesheets where the truck figures out if you are driving or not. You pretty much just need to say 'on/off/sleeper'. Those are harder to lie on. The correct action the companies should be doing is reviewing their routes and what is a realistic way to do them. That route from 1970 no longer is the same time frame. The driving rules have changed and so has the road layout.
thanatos519 5y ago
That sounds like a very dangerous case of Goodhart's law. Sheer insanity.
donarb 5y ago
Of course Australia allows road trains, that is a truck tethered to 4 or 5 trailers with a length of over 50 meters.

siva7 5y ago

I laughed until i realized that I’ve seen the exact software for this already, so it is unfortunately not an exaggeration.

ishjoh 5y ago

My father in law has been a trucker in the US for a long time, and really enjoys it, or rather used too. Video cameras being installed in the truck cab are the reason he's changed his opinion. In every way he is an upstanding citizen, employee, and driver, and even though he's passed retirement age he enjoys driving seasonally. I think this will be his last season due to the cameras. I know that if someone was watching me during all working hours I would also look for the exit.

caterama 5y ago

That sounds like a horrible situation to be in, but I can also understand the safety benefit. From high school, I remember a friend telling me about how they crashed. They glanced at the radio to switch channels (or change volume or something), which was just enough for the situation on the road to change and they hit the car in front of them. Clearly, that wasn't a good time to look away for even a split second, and a mature driver should know that. The empty highway has a lot more "safe" opportunities for glances away from the road, but I'm sure there's friction because the AI isn't lenient in this way. By the time the AI is aware of that, it's probably going to be doing the driving anyway! I recently used lane keeping assistance and automatic cruise control for a long distance road trip, and it's SO liberating. You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. I never felt safe doing that in an old car. The new experience is simply not as exhausting as running the speed check, lane check, distance check loop required in old cars.

donw 5y ago
> You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. Until you discover that the driver aid doesn't work correctly at that time.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Typically these things are not about improving safety but about reducing liability for the company and shifting blame to the employee.
stavros 5y ago
Yes, but, as you say, the AI should be looking outside, rather than at the driver.
newaccount74 5y ago
> I recently used lane keeping assistance and automatic cruise control for a long distance road trip, and it's SO liberating. You actually feel safe taking glances at the landscape. And then you read about Teslas crashing into stationary vehicles because their drivers weren't attentive enough. Current driver assist tech is dangerous because it is good enough to make you trust it to some extent, but not good enough to actually deal with unexpected situations when your attention isn't 100% on the road.
- caterama 5y ago
  I don't think all driver assist tech is dangerous. Tesla FSD is dangerous because the name suggests no supervision is needed, and it's good enough that drivers fall asleep at the wheel. My driver assist experience is with a 2020 Honda Insight. The LASK/ACC features make the car a collaborator in the driving process. I can't fall asleep, it requires too much supervision/collaboration. But instead of running the exhausting speed/lane position/follow distance loop as fast as I can, I can do it at some variable fraction of that speed depending on road conditions. I have to monitor for the things I know or suspect cause issues for the automated system. For example, it generally wants to follow exits, so I have to put resistance on the wheel when passing exits to keep it on the highway. On the other hand, it is excellent (better than me) at making fine adjustments to stay between well marked lines on long straight stretches... that's where I feel comfortable stealing a glance out the side window or resting my foot on the floor instead of hovering over the pedals. It doesn't avoid debris sitting in the middle of the road, so I have to watch for that and wrestle LKAS to avoid if I see that coming.

donw 5y ago

That's just... inhuman.

lbriner 5y ago
It's not in-human if you can't trust your drivers to do their job honestly. It won't be used everywhere but if you constantly wonder why some drivers seem to deliver far less than others and then it magically disappears once you install monitoring, it "proves its worth". It doesn't sound nice but when margins are paper-thin, it is not surprising.
- ResearchCode 5y ago
  But who's monitoring the monitors - bet margins are not thin enough not to offer cushy non-monitored positions for management.
- g3rald0s 5y ago
  If margins are paper thin, they should cut costs elsewhere, not human lives. I know a trucker who's stated that if they didn't lie on their timesheets or use amphetamines, there's no way they'd get the driving required done, they'd get canned, and another person would either falsify or use uppers to keep going. This kind of thinking could then be used for anything - office building workers, for instance, why is 0.5% of time mail not being sorted? It's entirely dehumanizing and takes creative process and ingenuity (what little there is in autonomous jobs) down the drain.
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    > timesheets or use amphetamines If you're not lying on your timesheets, why would you need to resort to amphetamines?
    - sumtechguy 5y ago
      Many companies are movie to digital timesheets where the truck figures out if you are driving or not. You pretty much just need to say 'on/off/sleeper'. Those are harder to lie on. The correct action the companies should be doing is reviewing their routes and what is a realistic way to do them. That route from 1970 no longer is the same time frame. The driving rules have changed and so has the road layout.

thanatos519 5y ago

That sounds like a very dangerous case of Goodhart's law. Sheer insanity.

donarb 5y ago

Of course Australia allows road trains, that is a truck tethered to 4 or 5 trailers with a length of over 50 meters.