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People are commenting this post and saying it is speculation, and until someone who directly was involved in these discussions shows up to comment, I suppose it

People are commenting this post and saying it is speculation, and until someone who directly was involved in these discussions shows up to comment, I suppose it is. I have been in design meetings with Jony, and Scott Forstall, and many others whose decisions were micromanaged by Steve at every step. You can argue that a lot of Steve's design decisions were questionable; rich Corinthian leather skeumorphism, lickable Aqua widgets, brushed aluminum window title bars, but he owned them. Steve and Jony would sit for hours outside of Caffe Macs going over designs. Steve would spend even more time inside the industrial design area going over prototypes. He would spend a couple of hours every week meeting with every software team that had user facing features. He had input on almost every pixel on the screen and every button/port/display/etc on hardware. Once he was gone, the drift began. It was inevitable that focus would shift. Scott no longer had protection by Steve. Jony fixated on the new campus and things like watch bands. No one had Steve to rein in whatever impulse they had. Sure, people would ask "What would Steve do?" but we also had Tim Cook pushing to optimize production, lower cost of goods and increase margins. Apple still has Steve DNA, but it continues to be diluted. You may disagree with Steve's vision and opinions, but it was strongly held and enforced. I feel almost everything about the last generation of MacBook Pros went against what Steve would have wanted and I am glad I wasn't there when those decisions were made.

MobileVet 5y ago
Thanks for sharing this. From an outsiders perspective I always assumed it was a ying and yang relationship where the sum was superior to the parts and in balance. Sounds like that was fairly accurate.
systemvoltage 5y ago
I have a contrarian view of Steve that completely goes against the current zeigeist - ala he was evil, squeezed employees, drove them to exhaustion, believed in voodoo magic health potions and was a total asshole. But then no one dares to ask - despite all this, how did he inspire so many to follow him, to look up to him and to worship him? Usually that's scapegoated with "He had that magic aura". This is totally unfair. He loved many people, had an excellent taste in design, changed his mind often, was sympathetic to people that he trusted, pushed back hard on things he knew sucked and generally kept Apple away from the rifraff endeavors of HP/Compaq/Dell/IBM and took risks. I think Walter Isaacson did a massive disservice by not focusing on things he was uniquely good at, but instead built a largely negative narrative around him; squandered an opportunity to show his work ethic, his approach and how he inspired people. I recommend reading "Becoming Steve Jobs" instead by Schendler and Tetzeli. One of the best moments in the book is when Steve wanted the I-beams to be absolutely perfect in the new office building. It would be better if we pick out good things about any accomplished personalities and try to benefit from them, instead of dishing out vile hatred that is oh-so-common at discussion boards like this.
- diskzero 5y ago
  I agree with most of what you say, but based on personal experience, have a hard time really knowing who he loved and didn't see sympathy expressed often for individuals who worked for him.
- krrrh 5y ago
  Second this, Becoming Steve Jobs is the superior book. It helped a lot that the authors had interacted with Jobs over decades and also had an understanding of business and technology that Isaacson was missing. There’s also an old documentary about the founding of NeXT that does such a great job of showing what it was like to be in the room with him as a member of a small team, and this was before he fully “became” Steve Jobs. People underestimate how much meaning can be found in being pushed hard by someone with a clear and inspiring vision. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Udi0rk3jZYM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Udi0rk3jZYM
agumonkey 5y ago
He was somehow a *volent Dictator For Life :) With this knowledge about Steve Jobs, it's fair to assume that he knew that too right ? he probably knew he was part of the glue that made Apple Apple, and took measures to avoid dilution happening too fast. Also says a thing about leadership and human groups :)
justicezyx 5y ago
Well Steve's is being martyred into a figure head for people who disagree with Apple's direction. Often used in contradictory situations. For example, one can claim too thin being against with Steve, and someone else opposite. Come-on, that guy has died for 10 years. His opinion on anything one cited for is *UNKNOWABLE*. Stop saying he will approve or disapprove some ideas... That's literally meaningless statement...
- diskzero 5y ago
  Of course you are right. I have a snapshot of Steve in my head that I apply, but his opinion changed frequently, as evidenced by the various permutations of the OSX interface designs. That being said, I just can't believe he would have been happy about the various issues with the old MacBooks. So many things feel so wrong.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    That being said, I just can't believe he would have been happy about the various issues with the old MacBooks. So many things feel so wrong It's an interesting question for sure. During his life, he certainly did champion a lot of form-over-function decisions: the "cube" G4, the hockey puck mouse on the iMacs, etc. And then he also championed some similar decisions that most people regard as roaring successes: the removal of legacy ports on the MacBooks felt an awful lot like the decision to ditch legacy ports on the original iMacs.
    - b3morales 5y ago
      > the removal of legacy ports on the MacBooks felt an awful lot like the decision to ditch legacy ports on the original iMacs Sort of, but this disregards some important product context. Having a multi-port dongle or adapters on a desktop machine is a very different experience than a portable.
  - lstamour 5y ago
    I think it’s fair to say that Apple was more responsive, faster, with someone like Jobs. There was just a bit more push through the company to fix X, Y or Z. It’s hard to say that any features in particular were delayed for iOS, but I think it’s possible macOS would have seen a bit more churn, arrived at the macOS 11 design sooner, and maybe already have a redesign in the works to handle the new “notch” at the top. That said, pure speculation on my part, but I think the notch would not have launched on the laptops without some other benefit - e.g. Face ID - or it would have been on pause until it was small enough to match the current menu bar’s height. There was sometimes more of a push to get things “just so,” I think. Either way, I miss the old showy product introductions. I like the polish of the videos under lockdown, but it feels like the format drains the enthusiasm a bit. And it’s hard to point to anything recent, except maybe AirPods Pro and recent software releases, where Apple really knocked it out of the park. Most Apple hardware seems like incremental improvements rather than flashy impulse buys. Maybe I’m just more impatient than I used to be.
ksec 5y ago
Pretty much sums up my opinion from 20+ years of following Apple. It is sad. No one knew what to do with Apple Retail. That was the most neglected part of business. Ron Johnson left. Scott Forstall forced out. Katie Cotton retired. ( I felt both Scott and Katie had a bit of Steve Jobs in them ) Mansfield retired. It sometimes feel Apple is now largely run by Tim Cook and Eddy Cue. Although the new MacBook Pro do seems to show there are people in Apple that still give a damn. That their voice may have been previously drown out. Quote from Steve. >It turns out the same thing can happen in technology companies that get monopolies, like IBM or Xerox. If you were a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copier or computer. So what? When you have monopoly market share, the company's not any more successful. >So the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, and they end up running the companies. And the product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products. The product sensibility and the product genius that brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running these companies that have no conception of a good product versus a bad product. > They have no conception of the craftsmanship that's required to take a good idea and turn it into a good product. And they really have no feeling in their hearts, usually, about wanting to really help the customers. Really wish Steve was still alive.
- sharikous 5y ago
  Johnny Srouji seems to be in a very important position these days. I bet the positive current you claim that you are still feeling comes largely from his direction
- amelius 5y ago
  Sorry, but I can't find any sympathy after they squeezed every penny out of developers in the app store. > And they really have no feeling in their hearts, usually, about wanting to really help the customers. Developers are customers too.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    Before the App Store: the carriers took 70% After the App Store: Apple takes 30% But let’s not pretend that most of the App Store revenue comes from poor indie developers. It comes from pay to win games, loot boxes, and other in app purchases with zero marginal costs.
beachy 5y ago
"Conceptual integrity in turn dictates that the design must proceed from one mind, or from a very small number of agreeing resonant minds." ― Frederick P. Brooks Jr., The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering
ymolodtsov 5y ago
I think these MacBooks are precisely in Steve's vision. They're ultimately just great machines for the users.
- lolive 5y ago
  The notch is dumb. Wait until the next iteration for the validation of that statement.
  - diskzero 5y ago
    Do you think the sensor will get smaller or the top bezel will just increase to the old height?
    - lolive 5y ago
      My mother has a a51. And apart from the OS, I cannot see any reason this phone is not the perfect form factor.
albrewer 5y ago
> rich Corinthian leather skeumorphism In my opinion this design was a lot more usable than the current 10 year trend toward having no borders around anything anywhere.
- diskzero 5y ago
  I agree with you. I am hoping the pendulum will swing back to more humane interfaces.

MobileVet 5y ago

Thanks for sharing this. From an outsiders perspective I always assumed it was a ying and yang relationship where the sum was superior to the parts and in balance. Sounds like that was fairly accurate.

systemvoltage 5y ago

I have a contrarian view of Steve that completely goes against the current zeigeist - ala he was evil, squeezed employees, drove them to exhaustion, believed in voodoo magic health potions and was a total asshole. But then no one dares to ask - despite all this, how did he inspire so many to follow him, to look up to him and to worship him? Usually that's scapegoated with "He had that magic aura". This is totally unfair. He loved many people, had an excellent taste in design, changed his mind often, was sympathetic to people that he trusted, pushed back hard on things he knew sucked and generally kept Apple away from the rifraff endeavors of HP/Compaq/Dell/IBM and took risks. I think Walter Isaacson did a massive disservice by not focusing on things he was uniquely good at, but instead built a largely negative narrative around him; squandered an opportunity to show his work ethic, his approach and how he inspired people. I recommend reading "Becoming Steve Jobs" instead by Schendler and Tetzeli. One of the best moments in the book is when Steve wanted the I-beams to be absolutely perfect in the new office building. It would be better if we pick out good things about any accomplished personalities and try to benefit from them, instead of dishing out vile hatred that is oh-so-common at discussion boards like this.

diskzero 5y ago
I agree with most of what you say, but based on personal experience, have a hard time really knowing who he loved and didn't see sympathy expressed often for individuals who worked for him.
krrrh 5y ago
Second this, Becoming Steve Jobs is the superior book. It helped a lot that the authors had interacted with Jobs over decades and also had an understanding of business and technology that Isaacson was missing. There’s also an old documentary about the founding of NeXT that does such a great job of showing what it was like to be in the room with him as a member of a small team, and this was before he fully “became” Steve Jobs. People underestimate how much meaning can be found in being pushed hard by someone with a clear and inspiring vision. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Udi0rk3jZYM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Udi0rk3jZYM

agumonkey 5y ago

He was somehow a *volent Dictator For Life :) With this knowledge about Steve Jobs, it's fair to assume that he knew that too right ? he probably knew he was part of the glue that made Apple Apple, and took measures to avoid dilution happening too fast. Also says a thing about leadership and human groups :)

justicezyx 5y ago

Well Steve's is being martyred into a figure head for people who disagree with Apple's direction. Often used in contradictory situations. For example, one can claim too thin being against with Steve, and someone else opposite. Come-on, that guy has died for 10 years. His opinion on anything one cited for is *UNKNOWABLE*. Stop saying he will approve or disapprove some ideas... That's literally meaningless statement...

diskzero 5y ago
Of course you are right. I have a snapshot of Steve in my head that I apply, but his opinion changed frequently, as evidenced by the various permutations of the OSX interface designs. That being said, I just can't believe he would have been happy about the various issues with the old MacBooks. So many things feel so wrong.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  That being said, I just can't believe he would have been happy about the various issues with the old MacBooks. So many things feel so wrong It's an interesting question for sure. During his life, he certainly did champion a lot of form-over-function decisions: the "cube" G4, the hockey puck mouse on the iMacs, etc. And then he also championed some similar decisions that most people regard as roaring successes: the removal of legacy ports on the MacBooks felt an awful lot like the decision to ditch legacy ports on the original iMacs.
  - b3morales 5y ago
    > the removal of legacy ports on the MacBooks felt an awful lot like the decision to ditch legacy ports on the original iMacs Sort of, but this disregards some important product context. Having a multi-port dongle or adapters on a desktop machine is a very different experience than a portable.
- lstamour 5y ago
  I think it’s fair to say that Apple was more responsive, faster, with someone like Jobs. There was just a bit more push through the company to fix X, Y or Z. It’s hard to say that any features in particular were delayed for iOS, but I think it’s possible macOS would have seen a bit more churn, arrived at the macOS 11 design sooner, and maybe already have a redesign in the works to handle the new “notch” at the top. That said, pure speculation on my part, but I think the notch would not have launched on the laptops without some other benefit - e.g. Face ID - or it would have been on pause until it was small enough to match the current menu bar’s height. There was sometimes more of a push to get things “just so,” I think. Either way, I miss the old showy product introductions. I like the polish of the videos under lockdown, but it feels like the format drains the enthusiasm a bit. And it’s hard to point to anything recent, except maybe AirPods Pro and recent software releases, where Apple really knocked it out of the park. Most Apple hardware seems like incremental improvements rather than flashy impulse buys. Maybe I’m just more impatient than I used to be.

ksec 5y ago

Pretty much sums up my opinion from 20+ years of following Apple. It is sad. No one knew what to do with Apple Retail. That was the most neglected part of business. Ron Johnson left. Scott Forstall forced out. Katie Cotton retired. ( I felt both Scott and Katie had a bit of Steve Jobs in them ) Mansfield retired. It sometimes feel Apple is now largely run by Tim Cook and Eddy Cue. Although the new MacBook Pro do seems to show there are people in Apple that still give a damn. That their voice may have been previously drown out. Quote from Steve. >It turns out the same thing can happen in technology companies that get monopolies, like IBM or Xerox. If you were a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copier or computer. So what? When you have monopoly market share, the company's not any more successful. >So the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, and they end up running the companies. And the product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products. The product sensibility and the product genius that brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running these companies that have no conception of a good product versus a bad product. > They have no conception of the craftsmanship that's required to take a good idea and turn it into a good product. And they really have no feeling in their hearts, usually, about wanting to really help the customers. Really wish Steve was still alive.

sharikous 5y ago
Johnny Srouji seems to be in a very important position these days. I bet the positive current you claim that you are still feeling comes largely from his direction
amelius 5y ago
Sorry, but I can't find any sympathy after they squeezed every penny out of developers in the app store. > And they really have no feeling in their hearts, usually, about wanting to really help the customers. Developers are customers too.
- scarface74 5y ago
  Before the App Store: the carriers took 70% After the App Store: Apple takes 30% But let’s not pretend that most of the App Store revenue comes from poor indie developers. It comes from pay to win games, loot boxes, and other in app purchases with zero marginal costs.

beachy 5y ago

"Conceptual integrity in turn dictates that the design must proceed from one mind, or from a very small number of agreeing resonant minds." ― Frederick P. Brooks Jr., The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering

ymolodtsov 5y ago

I think these MacBooks are precisely in Steve's vision. They're ultimately just great machines for the users.

lolive 5y ago
The notch is dumb. Wait until the next iteration for the validation of that statement.
- diskzero 5y ago
  Do you think the sensor will get smaller or the top bezel will just increase to the old height?
  - lolive 5y ago
    My mother has a a51. And apart from the OS, I cannot see any reason this phone is not the perfect form factor.

albrewer 5y ago

> rich Corinthian leather skeumorphism In my opinion this design was a lot more usable than the current 10 year trend toward having no borders around anything anywhere.

diskzero 5y ago
I agree with you. I am hoping the pendulum will swing back to more humane interfaces.